Anyone have experience making sacramental wine?

[seth8530]

Seth,

I make with brandy. The additional flavor is really worth it (smokey, oaky goodness). All everclear does is bring a grain tasting burn.

Brandy is far more expensive (Even though I use EJ (gallo) at about $50 per gallon). I really do not drink a whole lot of it (a carboy of it will keep myself and my two brothers well stocked for a year or two) so it does not cost me too much.

I ask that you do not take my word for it. I assume that you have not made port with brandy, but I urge you to give it a try. Split a batch with 1/2 brandy and 1/2 everclear. I am almost certain that you will prefer the one with brandy.

Well, and that is the question I bring up, is the BAD flavor (IMHO) from cheap brandy worse than a half as small amount of everklear?

I would not mind testing both ways out, but to be honest it seems for some reason that the whole port argument with cheap non grappa like brandy vs high proof grain spirit is more of an ideological argument than one based in any kind of fact most of the time.

I am still open either way though.

 

[jensmith]

I avoid church.... But the one my Mother goes to and made us go to as kids uses concord grape JUICE, not wine. I guess the wine maker retired long long ago!

Back on topic now


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[Dominic1920]

Getting back on topic. Port is never used for sacramental wine that I ever heard of. Its usually a red wine that has had a little water added to it during the consecration. As some have said here already some churches (read: Not Catholic) who use simple grape juice for its mere symbolism. But since its supposed to represent the blood of Christ red wine is what most sacraments use.

 

[Dhaynes]

Don't worry about getting off topic. I asked about port for communion wine because that's what they are using now. Several people have asked why port? I don't know but my in laws go to a different Episcopal Church and they use port as well. I'm going to ask my son's church that question. Once we get past "that's what we've always done" I'm betting it will come down to 1) It is dark red like blood and 2) it is sweet which may be more appealing to members who aren't wine drinkers. One other possible consideration is that all of the members drink from the same silver challis. They also mix the wine with water to symbolize the blood and water that came from Jesus side when a Roman soldier pierced his side after his death. The higher alcohol content of the port when mixed with water would still have a higher alcohol percentage that wine mixed with water. Maybe it's the antibacterial properties of the higher alcohol content they at going for. Guess I'll find out soon enough.

A lot of conservative churches are teetotalers so they avoid wine all together so they use grape juice instead. Many of them will argue with you that the "new" wine they had in Bible times was fresh grape juice that hadn't fermented. It's amazing how far people are willing distort the clear meaning of words to make them fit their personal bias. It's hard to know where this is more prevalent politics or religion But at least the teetotalers usually us individual cups instead of one shared cup so they don't need the alcohol for its antibacterial properties.

Special thanks to Steve aka "vacuumpumpman" who spent over an hour this evening on the phone talking through the various options and sharing a wealth of knowledge about all things wine related. It was quite an education! Even if we don't end up doing port for the church, I now have a wealth of good information for making my next personal batch of port.


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[JohnT]

I avoid church.... But the one my Mother goes to and made us go to as kids uses concord grape JUICE, not wine. I guess the wine maker retired long long ago!

Back on topic now


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Concord??? Are they praying that the good lord will change it into something good?? (Sorry, I could not resist)....

 

[JohnT]

Well, and that is the question I bring up, is the BAD flavor (IMHO) from cheap brandy worse than a half as small amount of everklear?

I would not mind testing both ways out, but to be honest it seems for some reason that the whole port argument with cheap non grappa like brandy vs high proof grain spirit is more of an ideological argument than one based in any kind of fact most of the time.

I am still open either way though.

Seth,

Although EJ brandy is not a Hennessy VSOP, it is rather drinkable. When I have a little left over, it does not go to waste. I am thinking that it is way more drinkable then filtered grain alcohol that has been oaked.

 

[seth8530]

I think you are under estimating how much I dislike e&j. To me it kind of had this over the top bubble gum flavor.

I used to make cocktails with it and never liked them that much. Then I tried using a hither quality spirit and it was like night and day.

So that is the argument I bring to the table, what is better more low quality brandy or less neutral grain alcohol? Grappa itself has attributes that in my opinion makes it hard to decide if it is more similar to everklear or drinking brandy.

 

[jensmith]

Concord??? Are they praying that the good lord will change it into something good?? (Sorry, I could not resist)....

Well... It is said the he turned water into wine, maybe they are trying to speed it along!
Besides, have you not learned to carry two mini bottles to church? One empty for the grape juice and one full of good wine for the cup
Those are the best memorys of church. Sitting in the back phew swapping dirty jokes with the old farmer and eating peanut MM's. What Mother never knew....


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[JohnT]

Well... It is said the he turned water into wine, maybe they are trying to speed it along!

I hope that is the case. After all, didn't the good lord suffer enough for our sins?????

 

[vacuumpumpman]

Don't worry about getting off topic. I asked about port for communion wine because that's what they are using now. Several people have asked why port? I don't know but my in laws go to a different Episcopal Church and they use port as well. I'm going to ask my son's church that question. Once we get past "that's what we've always done" I'm betting it will come down to 1) It is dark red like blood and 2) it is sweet which may be more appealing to members who aren't wine drinkers. One other possible consideration is that all of the members drink from the same silver challis. They also mix the wine with water to symbolize the blood and water that came from Jesus side when a Roman soldier pierced his side after his death. The higher alcohol content of the port when mixed with water would still have a higher alcohol percentage that wine mixed with water. Maybe it's the antibacterial properties of the higher alcohol content they at going for. Guess I'll find out soon enough.

A lot of conservative churches are teetotalers so they avoid wine all together so they use grape juice instead. Many of them will argue with you that the "new" wine they had in Bible times was fresh grape juice that hadn't fermented. It's amazing how far people are willing distort the clear meaning of words to make them fit their personal bias. It's hard to know where this is more prevalent politics or religion But at least the teetotalers usually us individual cups instead of one shared cup so they don't need the alcohol for its antibacterial properties.

Special thanks to Steve aka "vacuumpumpman" who spent over an hour this evening on the phone talking through the various options and sharing a wealth of knowledge about all things wine related. It was quite an education! Even if we don't end up doing port for the church, I now have a wealth of good information for making my next personal batch of port.


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It was truly a pleasure talking to you Dennis !
I really enjoy helping or just talking to other winemakers.

Good luck on you adventure - if you have any questions - you can always post them or give me a personal pm as i am stuck home for the next several weeks

 

[richmke]

Don't worry about getting off topic. I asked about port for communion wine because that's what they are using now.

If you are going to make fortified port, I would ask the church about using grain alcohol (everclear). That seems to be a big no-no with sacramental wine. The consensus seems to be "grape only".

 

[Dhaynes]

Finally heard back from the priest, "All Episcopal Churches use port". So, guess we're making port. I don't think they are as picky as other churches are about not using anything but grapes. Hard to see how you would get the high ABV without adding sugar or distilled alcohol. If you added a lot of raisins could that give you enough sugar to get to 18% or so?

Anyone have a recommendation for a kit to serve as the base wine?


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[seth8530]

I don't do kits, but you might try taking a good strong red kit ( perhaps one with grapes similar to that used in port) and dilute it down to around 30 brix and an acceptable PH.. and then ferment to around 12% and then fortify. You should still have residual sugar... Think like ice wine.

 

[corinth]

anyone-have-experience-making-sacramental-wine

Dhaynes,

What you are attempting to do is very much a blessing for your church. Though I am not an Episcopalian, you will probably need to ask a lot more questions before you attempt the actual process.

If your Priest has final say , that would make things a lot easier for you; however, that being said, often, there are committee's that work in conjunction who give the Priest or Pastor their learned opinion from both a biblical view, any health issues that could arise as some parishioners have definite views as they are often part of your church council when it comes to matters of such importance.

Though I am a practicing Catholic, I have volunteered many hours working with many Christian Denominations and various religions as the spirit guides me and at times, the path can be a rocky one.

My bottom line here is you need to talk to your pastor more and present your ideas to what ever church council may be part of the decision making process.

I bid you PEACE
Ed

 

[richmke]

I don't think they are as picky as other churches are about not using anything but grapes. Hard to see how you would get the high ABV without adding sugar or distilled alcohol.

Brandy is distilled alcohol from grapes, so still meets the requirements. Grappa is also. I don't know which tastes better, but Grappa is a secondary product (made from pressed skins) and costs more since it is mostly imported.

 

[JohnT]

We should ask Frier Tuckman.....