I should have said earlier in the thread, but I'm inspired by champagne/sparkling whites. I don't mean Cook's, but the really good stuff- Perignon, Clicot, Schramsburg, etc. i don't want to copy their flavor, but I want to make something contemporary, something of the same quality.
* do you taste apples? Really taste apples as in walk the grand kids and pull an apple when you walk by a crab apple tree used for decorative planting. (and then note in the back of your mind what it was like). Do you gnaw a bit at the skin and note skin taste vs bulk flesh. , , , , My guess is that 25% of the crabs in your area are nice for tannin (25% of the UW arborateum crabs are nice)
* soft tannin has astringent notes, this is similar to the skin tannins in many wine grapes. Soft tannin as with 5 to 10% Prairie Fire crab in a table apple juice produces a nice flavor level. Tannin is an antioxidant so to make a vintage apple you want a percentage. I will add this to multiple wines as rhubarb, Briana white grape, peach, gooseberry, mead, etc. Soft tannin will balance flavor wise against sweet. Ex my first foray into crabs I added 25% which was nice in the must but overpowering on a dry ferment. This got back sweetened to 1.018 to make it drinkable. (The city plants Prairie Fire under power lines along the street, so I have a row of 11 trees to harvest.). (I also have favorite trees at church, neighbors yards etc) (other trees have names like the one Dale found a block from his house or that tree by the stop lights on Sprecher rd). If I was starting I would buy some chestnut tannin since the astringent notes are clean.
* hard tannin has bitter flavor notes. Some folks like it. Bitter is a dominant flavor in hops/ beer products. Hard tannins are related to seed tannins in grapes, so as a wine maker most folks avoid them. But some folks like them, Kingston Black is described as the ideal balanced juice/ but for me the bitter notes are there. My favorite tannin source changes as the season progresses. August it will be dominant bitter/ the seeds are white. Late august all September it has lost the bitter notes, has nice astringent/ the seeds are brown. November after frost the fruit has lost astringent/ fruity notes are left.
* sugar. Many apple juices are 1.050 to 1.060. I make a lot of cysers. Crabs tend to be dry/ low juice and I have seen plants up to 1.100.
*color. Red flesh is readily available. Polyphenols are antioxidants as with grapes so I like red flesh.
* aromatics. Table apples tend to be selected for flavor. Flavor is readily available so a blend might be 90% table apple. Low temp fermentation like a white grape preserves aromatics. I will back sweeten with Old Orchard frozen concentrate to increase aromatics.
* sugar / ABV. 6% ie a cider is easy. By definition wines are above 8% and I put mine at 1.090 like a grape juice. Noted before I like honey.
* there are lots of cider apple selections, some are dominant hard tannin some are soft tannin. Kingston has both. Washington has orchards that specialize in hard cider or table apple.
* grafting is easy. It is easy to have one tree with branches that are good tannin or red flesh or aromatics. Pollination might be an issue if you are in a desert without neighbor trees/ including crabs
* perry is harder to make. It oxidizes easily.
* pH. I like under 3.4. I had wild lactic acid bacteria above 3.5. Lysozyme prevents LAB infection.
What specific questions?
That was an excellent and very complete answer, thank you. It answered a lot of questions pretty completely. Here's some thoughts that popped up:
So it sounds like finding apples with the right tannins is very important, and I need to keep an eye out for Prairie Fires. I might be in luck, my folks may have one in their back yard. It was interesting hearing about soft v. Hard tannins, and I think I'm going to be more interested in the former, as I'm going for something white, somewhat delicate, and complex (aiming in the champagne/sparkling white direction). I especially liked your naming conventions, it reminded me of the directions I'd get when I lived in the south- "that house about 3-400 feet past the holler tree, y'know the one where JD crashed his truck". Got a chuckle out of that one. But this is also encouraging since I can't see any reason why terroir would only apply to grapes, and that popped into my head while looking at establishing an orchard down the road if the opportunity presents itself. Can you recommend any apple varieties for aromatics, or any you like? Regarding ABV, this will be my first foray into fermentation where high ABV is low on the list. I'm more concerned with the best end product, and knowing that alcohol contributes to the overall experience in the mouth, I think it'll end up having lower alcohol than the standard ~14% that a lot of grape wines have, but we'll see. I also hadn't thought about different levels of tannins/sugars throughout the season and how they'd affect flavor, but that actually gives me a cool thought- since different plants ripen at different times, it could be neat to find varieties that express the desired qualities at the same time. I doubt I'll ever find that but it's an idea at least. That was an excellent response and I really appreciate you taking the time to write all of that out. Not only did it teach me a lot upfront, but it gave me a lot of big picture ideas to think about as well.
For specific questions, are there any recipes you like? Ratios and varieties (other than the ones mentioned here) to start with? On the topic of tannins, do you taste much of a difference between the tannins in red skinned apples and naturally tannic yellow apples? I'm thinking about which apples to pick strategically, and don't want to overpower a batch going overboard with too many types of tannins (if that's a thing). I'm sure Joliecour's book will help heaps too. I'm also keeping in mind that, at some point, it's better to simply
do and make mistakes to learn rather than sit back and try to overanalyze and intellectualize one's way to the perfect result.
Macintosh, Cox and Russets. Anything that is fragrant, high in tannin or high in acid. Not Fuji, Gala, Honeycrisp, Red Delicious.
Noted, thank you. I keep hearing MacIntosh so those will be on my list. Do you have any experience sourcing? I'm going to go talk to the head of produce at my local health, food store, as sometimes they will have up to 10 varieties of apples, any other input is appreciated.
yes apple can give similar, no I would say better flavor and balance than grape. Step back with Cox or Mac or Red Delicious and ask what is missing? versus a Napa valley red grape. To me the answer revolves around tannin which is necessary for shelf life, ie vintage apple beverages. I would rather have Frequin Rouge, or Dabinette (traditional ciders) ,,, but will gladly mix a Brown Snout Collaos (Spanish var) with 90% Mac juice to build a balanced beverage. Key we BUILD it. There are thousands of named varieties which are no better than my favorite tree, or my Prairie Fire.
Have you read The New Cider Makers Handbook; Joliecour? It is the best I have read on building an apple beverage.
Yet another excellent response. The concept of "building" a drink is one I really like; it demystifies the process. Also hearing the specific numbers (like a 9:1 ratio) helps a lot- I was preparing to have gallons of likely undrinkable cider working away for the first few months just to find a good ratio. I haven't read that book but I just bought a copy on your recommendation and it'll be here in a few days. I think I've got both a starting point and a vector to follow now!
They lack tannin. Green apples like Gravenstein or Granny Smith have tannin and there others that escape my memory that make decent wine.
Ah, that makes sense. So it sounds like they're really just not worth it as there's heaps of other varieties that give everything they do and then some.
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