Argon solution at pressure ... sanity check ?

[chonn]

Many, many sources confirm that "argon does not dissolve into wine".

.....but what if I pressurize it ?

If I fill the headspace of a vessel with argon at a very very modest positive pressure --such as 2 psi-- will that change this assumption and cause my argon to dissolve into the wine ?

In a perfect world where my vessel is perfectly sealed with no leakage at all would I expect a 2psi positive argon pressure to stay steady at that pressure or would I see the pressure drop as some gas dissolved into the liquid ?

Comments??

Thank you.

 

[Hazelemere]

Many, many sources confirm that "argon does not dissolve into wine".

.....but what if I pressurize it ?

If I fill the headspace of a vessel with argon at a very very modest positive pressure --such as 2 psi-- will that change this assumption and cause my argon to dissolve into the wine ?

In a perfect world where my vessel is perfectly sealed with no leakage at all would I expect a 2psi positive argon pressure to stay steady at that pressure or would I see the pressure drop as some gas dissolved into the liquid ?

Comments??

Thank you.

Argon, a heavy molecular weight gas, plays a crucial role in winemaking. It serves as a thick cover, blanketing wines throughout various stages of production. Unlike some other gases, argon is not soluble in wine. This property ensures that it does not dissolve into the wine, providing a longer-term protective blanket for the wine123.

When preparing wine for bottling, minimizing dissolved oxygen is essential. During processes like stabilizing, filtering, and clarifying, wine may be moved from tank to tank, exposing it to oxygen. Additionally, even with effective inert gas coverage, packaging can introduce additional oxygen. Since 1 mg/L of oxygen can indirectly lead to the loss of up to 4 mg/L of free sulfur dioxide, winemakers aim to reduce dissolved oxygen levels before bottling. Inert gas sparging techniques are commonly used to achieve this. Sparging involves bubbling very fine bubbles of an inert gas (such as argon) through the wine, effectively reducing dissolved oxygen levels to acceptable levels (generally < 0.5 mg/L) before bottling4.

So, next time you enjoy a glass of wine, remember that argon is quietly safeguarding its quality!

 

[sour_grapes]

Lots of misinformation on the interwebs.


Your sources are misinformed. Of course Ar is soluble in water (wine). (Here is one source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argon .) In fact, from that source, "Argon has approximately the same solubility in water as oxygen and is 2.5 times more soluble in water than nitrogen." I suspect what was meant by those other sources that you read was that there is little-to-no chemical interaction between the water molecules and the Ar atoms that would promote retention of the gas in the liquid (unlike, say, CO2).

As you suspect, the partial pressure of the gas above the liquid affects the amount of the gas dissolved. The amount of gas dissolved is proportional to the partial pressure. This relation is known as Henry's Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry's_law

 

[chonn]

@sour_grapes that was my suspicion--makes sense.

So if Argon will dissolve into the wine now the question is "how much".

I've decided to overpressure my vessel just about 1 PSI --- maybe 0.75 psi.

Compare that to filling a bottle neck with Argon and then jamming a plastic cork in -- that seems to be 2 psi and the volume ratio between ullage and 750ml is actually more than my head space ratio.

So I guess the answer to my question is; if I am less than 2 PSI and if my headspace ratio is equal or smaller than ullage to 750ml ratio then it must be just fine ??

(I specifically used plastic cork in my example above since an actual cork would allow Argon to pass over time which makes things more complicated....)

 

[winemaker81]

Assuming Paul is correct (which makes sense) and argon will dissolve into the wine, what is the point in pressurizing it?

 

[BigDaveK]

I read about argon being used, also. Looks like it's almost identical to oxygen.

Nitrogen looks good. Helium really good.

Charts here for a bunch of gases -

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gases-solubility-water-d_1148.html

 

[ratflinger]

I charge my wine kegs with argon, for preservation as well as delivery. I'm storing and delivering at 20psi. I have never seen out-gassing in the decanter or the glasses of wine. A keg usually sits under pressure for 3 - 4 weeks. Doing this with CO2 will definitely cause the CO2 to dissolve and your wine will be carbonated.

 

[chonn]

Assuming Paul is correct (which makes sense) and argon will dissolve into the wine, what is the point in pressurizing it?

See:

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/thre...to-displace-ambient-air-from-headspace.75621/

I am managing headspace in stainless steel containers by displacing all of the headspace with Argon.

But....how to measure or monitor the integrity of that argon over 60-90 days??

Turns out, the best way is to overpressure it just a little bit and monitor it with a gauge.

That's the TL;DR. See long discussion in the link above....

 

[winemaker81]

Turns out, the best way is to overpressure it just a little bit and monitor it with a gauge.

Thanks for the explanation. I use all glass or wood, so I fill with wine. SS has a different set of things that must be dealt with which I'm not personally familiar with.

 

[sour_grapes]

This is a sealed vessel, correct? Do you have input and output fittings? We had a recent discussion here that is relevant (but I cannot recall the thread, so I cannot give proper credit). How about filling it completely with water (or sanitizing solution. Then displace the water with argon. Then rack the wine into this vessel, thereby displacing much of the argon, leaving the headspace all argon?


Correct me if I am wrong, but all that solubility discussion was just a red herring, right? It makes no difference to you if some of the argon dissolves into the wine.

 

[chonn]

@sour_grapes The problem is not how to fill the head space with Argon - various ways and you can achieve it with care and attention--that is not the hard part.

The hard part is: after sealing it up how can you be certain over 60-90 days of bulk aging that you don't have some pinhole leak in your gasket and you exchange the full volume of air every 5 days or something?

How can you be certain your gasket is actually holding over 60-90 days?

Best answer is a pressure differential and then monitor that pressure differential. I pressured up to almost 1 psi and I check the gauge every morning.....easy.

 

[Jim Welch]

I bulk age my wines for one year, 6 months in glass on oak cubes then 6 months in cornie kegs and seal them with 25-30 psi with argon and bottle directly from the kegs at just a 3-4 psi after relieving the storage pressure. I have decanted directly and have never seen outgassing. I would not doubt there is a negligible amount though. Certainly have never had any cork movement and when I uncork there is no pressure release. That’s my experience at least.