auto-siphon issues, when to rack out of secondary, and a bunch of other beginner questions

[purpletongue]

I had a bit of trouble with my auto-siphon during racking to secondary. I had to keep pumping it near the end to maintain flow and there was a lot of bubbling in the tube from C02 I presume. I'm worried I may have aerated the wine. I'm hoping it didn't too much and instead mostly degassed the wine. I tested racking with water first and the auto-siphon worked fine. I'm wondering if the c02 in the wine messed up the flow somehow? I will be using a regular cane next time. Wine had an SG of about 1 - 0.9 when it went in secondary. I also added some malolactic bacteria even though I'm working with a kit.

Initially upon transfer the ferm lock was bubbling constantly. That trailed off and now in day 5 of secondary it burps about every 1 min 45 seconds. Since malolactic bacteria is recommended to leave to work up to 4 weeks, I was thinking of letting it go in secondary that long provided there is some c02 activity. However, since I'm worried some air got in during the first racking I am tempted to follow the kit instructions and rack again 7 days after secondary, since I will be adding sulphite during that rack and it may help with any acetic production from the air that got in?

Should I skip degassing as the kit suggests on the 2nd racking since there was the auto-siphon issue that may have introduced air and degassing introduces more air? By the initial C02 production after racking to secondary I'm thinking it degassed quite a bit (seeing as the SG was quite low going in)?

I am also unsure if it's ok to take the bung / ferm lock off during secondary ferm and third racking to take SG and temp readings? Will that not introduce air? If so how often is that acceptable?

Any help / tips much appreciated. Hope you are all well and safe.

 

[sour_grapes]

Welcome to WMT!

I really wouldn't be worried about the air introduced at this point. A small amount of air exposure won't hurt anything at this point. And, I hate to break it to you, but I will bet dollars to donuts that your wine is NOT "degassed quite a bit." I will bet you are still quite fizzy. (Go ahead and taste a sip if you want to find out.)

As you seem to know already, MLF is not recommended for a kit. That is fine, you are trying anyway. But please be aware that adding sulfite will squelch MLF. Whether that meets your aims or not is up to you.

You can certainly safely rack the wine again. What we try to avoid is a lot of exposure over time (i.e., weeks).

Finally, not sure what you mean by "SG of about 1 - 0.9." Can you clarify?

 

[cmason1957]

I agree, you really don't have much to worry about with the racking. It was just sucking up some air, not a big deal. Taking your bung off to take measurements is also fine, you just don't want the airlock to go dry, the bung to be off for extended periods of time.

Also one thing to mention, since you added Malolactic Bacteria, do not add potassium sorbate to your wine. If you do, you will probably end up with something that smells like geraniums. It is a fault that cannot be removed.

 

[purpletongue]

Welcome to WMT!

I really wouldn't be worried about the air introduced at this point. A small amount of air exposure won't hurt anything at this point. And, I hate to break it to you, but I will bet dollars to donuts that your wine is NOT "degassed quite a bit." I will bet you are still quite fizzy. (Go ahead and taste a sip if you want to find out.)

As you seem to know already, MLF is not recommended for a kit. That is fine, you are trying anyway. But please be aware that adding sulfite will squelch MLF. Whether that meets your aims or not is up to you.

You can certainly safely rack the wine again. What we try to avoid is a lot of exposure over time (i.e., weeks).

Finally, not sure what you mean by "SG of about 1 - 0.9." Can you clarify?

Thanks! It looks like a great forum with tons of useful information for beginners.

And that's great news to hear regarding the air. I was a little devastated when the auto-siphon started acting up. So I take it you're suggesting I should go ahead with the degass at the next racking as the kit suggests? Is the c02 production usually very intense after racking to secondary for the first while? And with regards to tasting, how often is it ok to take off the ferm lock to taste and test? Is that typically not done in secondary?

Regarding the MLF. I had purchased it after I found out it's not recommended b/c as you say the sulfite will kill it. However, I did call the manufacturer and talked to a tech who said it's possible if you use it before adding sulfite. Thing is that the kits already have that in there in the concentrate. So I presumed that maybe the sulphite mostly gets lost during primary, so if you add it in secondary you might be OK? The tech seemed to agree. I figured it couldn't hurt so I threw them in. So since you don't think air is too much an issue I'll let the secondary go past what the kit recommends if I still see some bubbles and let the malolactic hopefully do it's work.

The SG was at 1.000 when I racked to secondary. And then in my notes, I also have 0.9 which must be 0.900? I think that reading may have been after I topped up with 1 liter of water after racking to secondary. I had some trouble making out the gradations on my hydrometer.

 

[cmason1957]

Regarding the MLF. I had purchased it after I found out it's not recommended b/c as you say the sulfite will kill it. However, I did call the manufacturer and talked to a tech who said it's possible if you use it before adding sulfite. Thing is that the kits already have that in there in the concentrate. So I presumed that maybe the sulphite mostly gets lost during primary, so if you add it in secondary you might be OK? The tech seemed to agree. I figured it couldn't hurt so I threw them in. So since you don't think air is too much an issue I'll let the secondary go past what the kit recommends if I still see some bubbles and let the malolactic hopefully do it's work.

The SG was at 1.000 when I racked to secondary. And then in my notes, I also have 0.9 which must be 0.900? I think that reading may have been after I topped up with 1 liter of water after racking to secondary. I had some trouble making out the gradations on my hydrometer.

it most certainly isn't 0.900, your hydrometer can't read that low, most stop about 0.980. I am a little bit surprised the tech at the manufacturer didn't say no mlf whatsoever. MLF is a much gentler, slower process than alcohol fermentation. Taking sometimes months and giving little if any visual indications it is working. Generally wine kits are balanced with malic acid, which MLF now removes and you end up with a flat, lifeless tasting mess. That is provided it even starts.

 

[purpletongue]

I agree, you really don't have much to worry about with the racking. It was just sucking up some air, not a big deal. Taking your bung off to take measurements is also fine, you just don't want the airlock to go dry, the bung to be off for extended periods of time.

Also one thing to mention, since you added Malolactic Bacteria, do not add potassium sorbate to your wine. If you do, you will probably end up with something that smells like geraniums. It is a fault that cannot be removed.

That's a relief. Thx for the tips regarding taking the bung off.

Oh no? I can't add any sulfite even after secondary is complete? I didn't know that. In the book I'm reading I believe it suggests using both MLB and sulfites.

 

[purpletongue]

it most certainly isn't 0.900, your hydrometer can't read that low, most stop about 0.980. I am a little bit surprised the tech at the manufacturer didn't say no mlf whatsoever. MLF is a much gentler, slower process than alcohol fermentation. Taking sometimes months and giving little if any visual indications it is working. Generally wine kits are balanced with malic acid, which MLF now removes and you end up with a flat, lifeless tasting mess. That is provided it even starts.

I just took another look at my hyrdometer. At the very top of the gradations it has 1.000 then it has a 90 then a 80. I believe it was at the 90.

 

[purpletongue]

MLF is a much gentler, slower process than alcohol fermentation. Taking sometimes months and giving little if any visual indications it is working.

I have read that it is a slower process, which is why the tech recommened 4 weeks as oppose to the 1 week the kit recommends for secondary. It does produce c02 so shouldn't some small amount of bubbles be indicating it's at work? I mean if it's totally flat you could assume they are either dead or dormant no? I think I read they can wake up later and then you're left with fizzy wine or popped corks. Maybe I shouldn't of messed with them? Now I'm worried about the MLB! lol.

Generally wine kits are balanced with malic acid, which MLF now removes and you end up with a flat, lifeless tasting mess.

But won't that malic acid (which is tart tasting) be converted to lactic acid (which is desirable)? I thought that's the whole point of MLB.

 

[cmason1957]

That's a relief.

Oh no? I can't add any sulfite even after secondary is complete? I didn't know that. In the book I'm reading I believe it suggests using both MLB and sulfites.

Secondary is a really horrible term that kit makers use. I hate it. For kits secondary means you racked it out of the bucket into a carboy and put an airlock on it, it is the completion of the alcohol fermentation and there is just one alcohol fermentation.

For those of us who often make wines starting with raw grapes, secondary means we added malolactic bacteria and are waiting for the malolactic fermentation to complete and there truly are two different fermentations, the alcohol producing one and then the conversion of malic acid to lactic acid.

So since you added malolactic bacteria, you really should let it finish before you add any sulfite. Assuming it ever starts.

 

[cmason1957]

I just took another look at my hyrdometer. At the very top of the gradations it has 1.000 then it has a 90 then a 80. I believe it was at the 90.

That is correct and it really means 0.990 and 0.980, the 9 isn't shown, but you are below 1.000 so it is assumed. For further proof look at the line on your hydrometer marked as 1.100, just above that is 1.090, so at the 1.000 line just above that is 0.990. Pure water is at 1.000 and since you have alcohol in your wine now and alcohol is less dense than water, you are at 0.990.

Check out this discussion for a full explanation: How To Read Hydrometer

 

[cmason1957]

I have read that it is a slower process, which is why the tech recommened 4 weeks as oppose to the 1 week the kit recommends for secondary. It does produce c02 so shouldn't some small amount of bubbles be indicating it's at work? I mean if it's totally flat you could assume they are either dead or dormant no? I think I read they can wake up later and then you're left with fizzy wine or popped corks. Maybe I shouldn't of messed with them? Now I'm worried about the MLB! lol.

But won't that malic acid (which is tart tasting) be converted to lactic acid (which is desirable)? I thought that's the whole point of MLB.

I have seen some MLF take 3 - 6 mothnths, time isn't a good indicator of is it done. MLF does produce some CO2, but not nearly at the rate that an alcohol fermentation does and the bubbles it does produce are really just pinprick sized bubbles. I have also done some quite successful MLF's and never seen a bubble and I have also done MLF's where it generated the bubbles like a tea kettle and after 6 weeks there was no appreciable change in the amount of malic acid in the wine.

The malic acid is converted to lactic, yes. and the amount of acid goes down as well, so you end up with an unbalanced wine. someone did a test back maybe near the beginning of the year doing the same kit with and without MLF and the without one was significantly better as I recall and I don't recall much else about it.

 

[purpletongue]

Secondary is a really horrible term that kit makers use. I hate it. For kits secondary means you racked it out of the bucket into a carboy and put an airlock on it, it is the completion of the alcohol fermentation and there is just one alcohol fermentation.

For those of us who often make wines starting with raw grapes, secondary means we added malolactic bacteria and are waiting for the malolactic fermentation to complete and there truly are two different fermentations, the alcohol producing one and then the conversion of malic acid to lactic acid.

So since you added malolactic bacteria, you really should let it finish before you add any sulfite. Assuming it ever starts.

Ah I see, I remember reading something about this in my book. Thanks for clarifying!

 

[purpletongue]

That is correct and it really means 0.990 and 0.980, the 9 isn't shown, but you are below 1.000 so it is assumed. For further proof look at the line on your hydrometer marked as 1.100, just above that is 1.090, so at the 1.000 line just above that is 0.990. Pure water is at 1.000 and since you have alcohol in your wine now and alcohol is less dense than water, you are at 0.990.

Check out this discussion for a full explanation: How To Read Hydrometer

That makes sense. I was a bit confused about the gradations. Thanks! I'll check out that link.

 

[purpletongue]

I have seen some MLF take 3 - 6 mothnths, time isn't a good indicator of is it done. MLF does produce some CO2, but not nearly at the rate that an alcohol fermentation does and the bubbles it does produce are really just pinprick sized bubbles. I have also done some quite successful MLF's and never seen a bubble and I have also done MLF's where it generated the bubbles like a tea kettle and after 6 weeks there was no appreciable change in the amount of malic acid in the wine.

The malic acid is converted to lactic, yes. and the amount of acid goes down as well, so you end up with an unbalanced wine. someone did a test back maybe near the beginning of the year doing the same kit with and without MLF and the without one was significantly better as I recall and I don't recall much else about it.

Ahhh I see. That's good to know. I didn't consider how it might bring the acid levels out of wack. I'll skip the MLB for kits then. Can I ask, why does it differ starting with grapes? Wouldn't it throw the acid out of wack in that case too?

And is MLB beneficial if you use pasteurized juice from a winery? Is that the same as a kit? You know the ones that come in a fermentation pail with the same kit supplies? What about un-pasteurized fresh juice from a winery?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge!

 

[sour_grapes]

I will admit we don't have hard data on some of your questions. But Tim Vandergrift, sort of the godfather of modern kits, says, and I quote "it will wind up in tears."

The difference is that the buckets you get and the grapes you grow are NOT adjusted for acidity. Kits, on the other hand, are adjusted (and have other manipulations done, etc). Evidently they use malic acid, but that is an inference, I will admit.

 

[Ajmassa]

The way those kits are balanced is the same acids as standard wines but not the same ratios I believe. Might be more malic and less tartaric and skews test levels from typically ideal #s
Also I think I read up to half the malic acid in there is man made and not able to be converted thru mlf anyway.
Some have experimented with this out of curiosity. and ended up adding acid back.

The seasonal fresh grape juice buckets are also pre balanced for prefermentation #s but not in the same way as kits and they DO benefit from mlf.

pasteurized stuff I don’t know about

 

[purpletongue]

I will admit we don't have hard data on some of your questions. But Tim Vandergrift, sort of the godfather of modern kits, says, and I quote "it will wind up in tears."

The difference is that the buckets you get and the grapes you grow are NOT adjusted for acidity. Kits, on the other hand, are adjusted (and have other manipulations done, etc). Evidently they use malic acid, but that is an inference, I will admit.

Oh no! Well I hope it's still drinkable wine. I'm sorta peeved the tech told me it'd be fine. She didn't mention anything about it producing off flavors or an out of balance wine.

EDIT:
I will add that she did seem very knowledgeable but it seemed like she didn't get too many calls from home winemakers. Her knowledge seemed based in providing information to wineries and was highly technical and chemistry based. I got the sense she was wearing a lab coat, and stepped away from breeding various MLB strains in test tubes. She did give me a lot of other good advice too. I think she actually stepped away to get a second opinion on adding it to a kit if I remember right. On the product website it says to use caution when using it with kits. But as far as she told me that was only because the sulphite would kill the MLB. Anyway food for thought.

 

[purpletongue]

The way those kits are balanced is the same acids as standard wines but not the same ratios I believe. Might be more malic and less tartaric and skews test levels from typically ideal #s
Also I think I read up to half the malic acid in there is man made and not able to be converted thru mlf anyway.
Some have experimented with this out of curiosity. and ended up adding acid back.

The seasonal fresh grape juice buckets are also pre balanced for prefermentation #s but not in the same way as kits and they DO benefit from mlf.

pasteurized stuff I don’t know about

I was wondering that. That if I can correct with acid after I give the MLB a chance. If it tastes like it's missing acid before bottling, I can then add some back with tartaric?

Thanks for sharing regarding the juice buckets! It's interesting the kits do things so differently. Is that specifically because they skip the MLB fermentation? I know not all wines benefit from it so I guess that wouldn't always be the case. I guess obviously time is a factor as many advertise as drinkable in 28 days or so.

 

[Ajmassa]

Your probably gonna be fine. Anyone who got some mlf completion on a kit were actively taking multiple measures to encourage it. It doesn’t seem to take with kits very easily. As soon as you’re fully dry just hit it with some so2 and you’re good.

worst case scenerio you need to make a minor adjustment down the road. No biggie

 

[purpletongue]

Your probably gonna fine. Anyone who got some mlf compketion on a kit we’re actively taking multiple measures to encourage it. It doesn’t seem to take with kits very easily. As soon as your fully dry just hit it with Some so2 and your good.

worst case scenerio you need to make a minor adjustment down the road. No biggie

(Sighs with relief).... Cheers, thx for sharing your knowledge. I'll try to remember to come back here as the batch progresses and give any relevant updates. From the looks of the forum so far I'll likely be spending a long time lurking through some of the great threads.