Back-sweetening without stabilizing

[Rappatuz]

Surely a no-no but can it be done (safely)?

Let's say I have a wine which is a full year old and has been racked several times. It's totally clear with no visible lees. I back-sweeten and take a hydrometer reading after sugar's been dissolved. After a couple of months I take another reading - it's identical. I decide to bottle it

First off, I've never done this. We all know there's a risk of creating bottle bombs. I want to explore this possibility with you guys. Can it be done or is it simply a recipe for disaster? I've read books on wine making that informs the reader about back-sweetening but fails to mention stabilization. This makes me wonder.

Let's say you want to back-sweeten but also don't want to take too much of a risk and limit the dose to, say, 3 g/l. Would you deem this safe? How about 5 g/l (raises the SG by ~0.002)? How much pressure is made if a 3 or 5 g/l sugar concentration re-ferments in the bottle? How much pressure can a regular wine bottle withstand without blowing? Any physicists or chemists in the crowd? As a reference I think beer typically has 5 g/l [table sugar] added for priming. Most likely beer bottles are stronger, though.

If you've back-sweetened without stabilizing, please chime in. I'd like to hear what your experience was like.

-Rappatuz

 

[G259]

The question seems to be: 'Has all the yeast been racked out of the wine?' Good question, I suppose it's possible, but in the words of the sage Clint Eastwood "Do ya' feel lucky . . ."!

 

[cmason1957]

If it is clear, you can rest assured most of the yeast is removed. However, you are betting that not even one year cell is left to easy up some of that remaining sugar. I have to say, the odds are not in your favor. You could sterile filter, that's 0.5 micron absolute size to help the odds. But even with that I would take out the cheap insurance of adding kmeta and k sorbate.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I do fruit wines which are back sweetened and try to avoid adding sorbate
@Rappatuz . . . if you’ve back sweetened without stabilizing. . . .
My feeling is it is primarily time related, ex a six month fails 75%,,, I won’t do it any more.
A nine month ,,, fails 10 to 15% of the time
A one year ,,, 1 or 2% of the time it fails

there are other variables as low pH, SO2, percent alcohol higher, storage temp warmer, removing nutrients, filtering (I use BonVino #3). Each adds more protection to up the odds of being successful. I can’t do it 100% but the worst Ive had is foaming when pouring.

 

[user 32114]

i stabilize everything except for my skeeter pee port, SP i max out my EC-1118 yeast then add a fifth of 190 proof pure grain alcohol to six gallons skeeter pee, then that i just bottle, everything else in my country wines gets stabilized ,,
Dawg

 

[Rappatuz]

The question seems to be: 'Has all the yeast been racked out of the wine?' Good question, I suppose it's possible, but in the words of the sage Clint Eastwood "Do ya' feel lucky . . ."!

We lack a tough emoticon chewing a straw.

If it is clear, you can rest assured most of the yeast is removed. However, you are betting that not even one year cell is left to easy up some of that remaining sugar. I have to say, the odds are not in your favor. You could sterile filter, that's 0.5 micron absolute size to help the odds. But even with that I would take out the cheap insurance of adding kmeta and k sorbate.

Gotcha!

I do fruit wines which are back sweetened and try to avoid adding sorbate
@Rappatuz . . . if you’ve back sweetened without stabilizing. . . .
My feeling is it is primarily time related, ex a six month fails 75%,,, I won’t do it any more.
A nine month ,,, fails 10 to 15% of the time
A one year ,,, 1 or 2% of the time it fails

there are other variables as low pH, SO2, percent alcohol higher, storage temp warmer, removing nutrients, filtering (I use BonVino #3). Each adds more protection to up the odds of being successful. I can’t do it 100% but the worst Ive had is foaming when pouring.

Okay, this is really good. Nothing beats real experience.

It sounds like you've done this a lot and had a lot of "failures" (re-fermentation in bottles). Still you've never had a bottle bomb? How much sugar do you use for back-sweetening? Maybe you've found a concentration that's "safe" with regards to pressure and bottle strength?

What about the other factors you mention, like ABV, acid concentration, and sulfites? How does a storage temp warmer help? Would you mind taking us through your process and philosophy for back-sweetening without stabilizing?

i stabilize everything except for my skeeter pee port, SP i max out my EC-1118 yeast then add a fifth of 190 proof pure grain alcohol to six gallons skeeter pee, then that i just bottle, everything else in my country wines gets stabilized ,,
Dawg

Maxing out is a really good way to do it but most times I just don't want a high ABV in my country wines.

 

[user 32114]

We lack a tough emoticon chewing a straw.



Gotcha!



Okay, this is really good. Nothing beats real experience.

It sounds like you've done this a lot and had a lot of "failures" (re-fermentation in bottles). Still you've never had a bottle bomb? How much sugar do you use for back-sweetening? Maybe you've found a concentration that's "safe" with regards to pressure and bottle strength?

What about the other factors you mention, like ABV, acid concentration, and sulfites? How does a storage temp warmer help? Would you mind taking us through your process and philosophy for back-sweetening without stabilizing?



Maxing out is a really good way to do it but most times I just don't want a high ABV in my country wines.

done correctly and you can never tell the the extra rocket fuel in pineapple or sp, although i put 1 bottle of lemon luice for every gallon of water, taste just like lemonade aid

 

[Rice_Guy]

* when I add sugar it is for taste, ,,, if I was putting out cider or sparkling wine then I would do it to get one or at most two atmospheres of pressure. For more details I would need to look up a table out Cider Making.
* I have never had a bottle bomb,
* one high Titratable Acidity mulberry where I back sweetened to 1.020 was opened when I found the issue and heat pasteurized as if it was cider. @Rappatuz this is like holding at a temp where the yeast die off.
* low temperature as 10 C will lengthen the time yeast remains viable! (ex frozen yeast in bread rolls will live for years)
* all stressors will inhibit yeast, think if you were creating a stuck fermentation what would you do to get stuck ,,, wine is a preserved food system. Note there are few black and white rules, as 0.5 micron filters or 140F for an hour. This food system is complicated.
* the easiest way inactivate yeast is age your wine a year at room or basement temperature, if you aren’t in a rush to drink your wine at 90 days it works.

Philosophy; in one of the first contests I judged a sample came in with geranium taste, it’s not deadly but very weird in wine,,,, also the literature points out that sorbate breaks down and creates off flavors (2 year shelf life),,, also grandpa and mom didn’t use sorbate, so copy what they did

 

[jvbutter]

I've been tempted to try it, using the #3 filters and add the sugar. I still don't trust is as of now. does a 0.5m filter really get out all the yeast? I know the big boys do it some how.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I would not trust the BonVino #3 either. It is layers of a cellulose fiber, not a tight absolute filter.
At best it removes a high percentage of 0.5 micron cells, that leads to if the yeast is dead who cares and if they are actively metabolizing oh oh.

 

[user 32114]

I've been tempted to try it, using the #3 filters and add the sugar. I still don't trust is as of now. does a 0.5m filter really get out all the yeast? I know the big boys do it some how.

it takes a 0'25 filter to get all yeast out
Dawg

 

[1d10t]

Just put 'sweeten to taste' on the label and be done with it.

 

[G259]

lol! I have asked my taste testers to get their sugar bowl, and put a small pinch in their glass repeatedly, tasting as they go (after stirring good).

 

[mainshipfred]

I've been told a .45 absolute is what the commercial wine makers use but it's hard for us to do that economically. I don't back sweeten very often or very much but when I do I use the #3 after a few rackings and heavy up the sulfite, seems to work.

 

[Rappatuz]

* when I add sugar it is for taste, ,,, if I was putting out cider or sparkling wine then I would do it to get one or at most two atmospheres of pressure. For more details I would need to look up a table out Cider Making.

Do you have any recollection of how much sugar you might've added at most (g/l)?

* one high Titratable Acidity mulberry where I back sweetened to 1.020 was opened when I found the issue and heat pasteurized as if it was cider. @Rappatuz this is like holding at a temp where the yeast die off.

Will higher acidity (lower pH) make the wine less likely to ferment?

* the easiest way inactivate yeast is age your wine a year at room or basement temperature, if you aren’t in a rush to drink your wine at 90 days it works.

Cool

Philosophy; in one of the first contests I judged a sample came in with geranium taste, it’s not deadly but very weird in wine,,,, also the literature points out that sorbate breaks down and creates off flavors (2 year shelf life),,, also grandpa and mom didn’t use sorbate, so copy what they did

I also want to avoid sorbate in wines I want to keep for long. Pasteurization looks like an interesting alternative.

 

[Rice_Guy]

I dose sugar to taste, see TA vs. gravity of wines below
pH is the preservative factor, yeast will get “stuck” below pH 3, that noted you need to ferment at higher pH, the normal low limit is 3.1. ,, An interest tool is that carbonating at one atmosphere will decrease the pH about 0.1.
Most folks, except cider makers will not pasteurize, my guess has been they are concerned about flavor.

Do you have any recollection of how much sugar you might've added at most (g/l)?
Will higher acidity (lower pH) make the wine less likely to ferment?
. Pasteurization looks like an interesting alternative.

 

[Chuck E]

It sounds like you've done this a lot and had a lot of "failures" (re-fermentation in bottles). Still you've never had a bottle bomb? How much sugar do you use for back-sweetening? Maybe you've found a concentration that's "safe" with regards to pressure and bottle strength?

What about the other factors you mention, like ABV, acid concentration, and sulfites? How does a storage temp warmer help? Would you mind taking us through your process and philosophy for back-sweetening without stabilizing?
Maxing out is a really good way to do it but most times I just don't want a high ABV in my country wines.

Champagne bottles are the only thing I would use.

 

[user 32114]

then use a low ABV% tolerance yeast, after you get to your low yeast ABV% tolerance then you can backsweeten as you like,
Dawg

Maxing out is a really good way to do it but most times I just don't want a high ABV in my country wines.
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