Beginner's diary - Shiraz making

[Obelix]

Thanks Ajmassa.
It's now calibrated - and better but is still not necessarily correct.
I'll recheck ot in the distilled water again.

 

[Ajmassa]

4.2 is high. But not unheard of. But requires a lot of so2. Id want to be pretty certain of the measurement before I adjusted with tartaric or added sulphites appropriate for 4.2
You know what you should probably do? You might as well just run the table and bang out everything for this first batch. Get yourself a TA test kit. If you own VC tanks you should probably test for TA Lol. I ran into this “can I trust my numbers” issue probably at the same part of the wines timeline too. Ended up sending samples to a lab to confirm. Glad I did too because I was way off. And wine was way healthier than my meter read.

 

[Obelix]

Checked the Ph meter in destilled water. Shows 6.9.
With the 0.1 tolerance the meter appears reasonable now.

It's a bit overwhelming to get into the chemical re-balancing of wine at this stage. It would require much more education.

Given this year's experience - I'm likely to add tartaric acid into the must next year. Will sort out the calculation then.

I doubt this wine will go off as it is likely to be consumed in one year.
Sulfites were added into the must, and the containers sterilised with the same - but no further sulfites were added.
This first keg was bottled without sulfites. Hopefully the wine will last 4 months.
The other two kegs will get 5g each - not enough, but still - will stay on that quantity this year.

May get a lot of high quality vinegar

Will include the TA kit for the next sesson - thanks.

 

[Johnd]

Checked the Ph meter in destilled water. Shows 6.9.
With the 0.1 tolerance the meter appears reasonable now.

It's a bit overwhelming to get into the chemical re-balancing of wine at this stage. It would require much more education.

Given this year's experience - I'm likely to add tartaric acid into the must next year. Will sort out the calculation then.

I doubt this wine will go off as it is likely to be consumed in one year.
Sulfites were added into the must, and the containers sterilised with the same - but no further sulfites were added.
This first keg was bottled without sulfites. Hopefully the wine will last 4 months.
The other two kegs will get 5g each - not enough, but still - will stay on that quantity this year.

May get a lot of high quality vinegar

Will include the TA kit for the next sesson - thanks.

Just checking the pH of your meter at 7.0 isn’t sufficient, invest in some testing solution that has a pH around 3.0, much closer to the proper wine pH range. I get that you’re planning to drink it fast, but your own words were that great advice from here helped you get to this point, don’t stop taking the good advice you’re still getting. Glad to hear that your wine is tasting good.

 

[sour_grapes]

Let me second AJ's idea (I think) of "calibrating" it against commercial wines. Basically, any white wine will be below ~3.5, and any red will be below ~3.9. (Of course, JohnD is correct that a known, buffered calibration solution would be best, but I imagine you already HAVE some wine!

 

[Obelix]

yes, yes... haven't explained well
I tried it in the distilled water as cmason advised, and it showed 6.6 - it was obviously out.
Then I used the calibration crystals provided with the meter (they provided two, I used one to calibrate it originally).
The calibration solution showed 0.4 out of alignment - had to re-calibrate the device. Once aligned, I also tried in distileld water - showed 6.9 - whcih was close enough given the device tolarance +/-1.

Now, calibrating against commercial wines...I'll do it when I get a chance.
Stopped buying them as I made this one. May visit some frineds and dip my meter in their glasses
Also, if it is true that the WA wines are generally higher in Ph, may still show high - shoudl buy a French one.

Thanks John, haven't stopped listening
Everyone's advice is always appreciated. Would't make a good wine without it.
Just that balancing the wine with Tartaric previously didn't do much, actually achieved the opposite - so I realised I was embarking on the process which I don't understand enough and may do more damage than good.
Also, regardless of the need to put a lot of sulfites in due to the high ph, that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid - sulfites distrub my sleep and cause me a headache - so trying to balance the necessary "evil" vs survival of the wine.

 

[Ajmassa]

Down the shore and can’t sleep. Might as well talk wine. Hearing you describe your buffers and meter - I think I had the same one! Those powdered packets that need to be mixed first before calibrating? The worst! And about 95% of meters seem to use 4.0 and 7.0. Yet my cheapo came with these powdered buffers (in Chinese) of Like 9.75, 6.86 and 4.48 or something. I forget exactly. Huge hassle in comparison to typical. Which is liquid solutions of 4 and 7. They even make small one time use packets.
Glad you agree TA testing should be in your wheelhouse next harvest. That ones easy tho. And you can test with or without meter in case you lose trust.
So if your wine really is 4.2 ish? That’s uncomfortable for a lot of us homewinemakers. Lacks acid protection even if it tastes good. The pros get away with it because.... well because they’re pros with scientists on the damn payroll! I had high ph flirting with 3.9-4.0 last fall. It didn’t take long to start forming a layer of some type of “uneasiness” on the surface. Wasn’t until I adjusted ph down did it stop. If your not gonna adjust just keep your eye on it- even if you dose appropriate sulphites. I remember mine called for >70ppm. Was a lot. I dosed before I adjusted acid. Silver lining- I haven’t had to any more since!
BUT.....since you’ve got a VCT (awesome btw!) you got options to play with it. And maybe steal some wine for bench trials if you get bored. Adding varying amounts tartaric- noting ph change and taste change. Adding acid really isn’t anything to fret either. It’s kinda simple — especially when disregarding TA. Just remember a couple rules of thumb.
-1g/L of tartaric will lower ph by .1
- always add half of desired dose and check since some wines move easier than others.
And that’s it. Not waiting. No cold storage. Effects happen immediately for tasting and checking. When I added tartaric going from 4.0 to 3.8. (In multiple additions) I noticed HUGE improvement on taste. Then few weeks later I dropped it to 3.6. I kinda regret that 2nd addition making the tartaric taste dominate the profile. (Still learning and figuring **** out the hard way myself)
But about 10 months later? Starting to fall into place and getting tasty. Just in time to put that sucker in some oak for some graceful aging. I’m in no rush to bottle anything. I’d rather buy new vessels than bottle too early before she’s ready.
This has been a great thread of your first batch. So lets see it through proper.

 

[Obelix]

Thanks Ajmassa - what stopped me the first time was that the ph actually went up by 0.1 after adding tartaric. Having said that, it was in the middle of MLF.

VCT was great for bulk fermentation, but eventually I raked the wine into three converted beer keg where the MLF completed.
30 Litres were put in 2L flagons and consumed along the way - just checking the progress

I'll definitelly get a TA kit for the next season.
I think the meter may not be a complete disaster - given it now (calibrated) shows 6.9 in distilled water.

>>>The pros get away with it because.... well because they’re pros with scientists on the damn payroll!
- but also - they buy sulfites in bulk and don't mind putting in more in than required - as it is not who will be drinking it.

>>>It didn’t take long to start forming a layer of some type of “uneasiness” on the surface.
So this is something I didn't understand before - I assumed it would turn into vinegar.

Well, this keg is in the bottles - so nothing much to do but drink it.
I'll leave 5 bottles to open yearly and see how it develops. The outcome should tell me when the wine will go bad.

2nd keg - I'll add 5gm of sulfite and leave as is. See where it takes me. (1g per 10L seems to be a rule of thumb - "by the book")

3rd keg - I'll take your comment as an encouragement - I'll gradually (over several days) add enough Tartaric to lower the ph to 3.6. Then add 5gm of sulfite.

>>>Just in time to put that sucker in some oak for some graceful aging.
Now, this is something I am still considering. Oak or tannins.
I don't understand the difference - which one produces that South Australian Shiraz typical taste. It seems I'll have to find out by experimenting on my own wine.

>>>This has been a great thread of your first batch. So lets see it through proper.
Thanks, I learned a lot from you guys and hopefully someone else may also learn from it - save themselves some trouble.

 

[Wolfpup]

Thank you for posting your diary. You sound pretty knowledgeable about the wine you’re making and glad to hear that it tastes good. That I could understand. I got lost on your first page but stuck out the read.

The PH meter stuff is very interesting. Went thru that calibration too, don’t really understand PH though.

If you don’t mind, can I ask what VTC and MLF stand for? Tried to look it up and I’m getting stuff like Vermont Technical College, apparently they have a wine making course.

 

[meadmaker1]

MLF = malolactic fermentation.

Again im not the expert here so googling that should get you an accurate answer

 

[Obelix]

First I am not knowledgeable - only starting - but have learned heaps from various documentation I read and more so from this forum.

MLF - As Meadmaker said - malo-lactic fermentation. The primary fermentation converts sugar to alcohol, the MLF is s secondary fermentation - converting an unpleasant acid into a pleasant one. Mostly applied to red wines by adding the appropriate bacteria.

VCT - variable capacity tank.
A stainless steel tub with a lid that sits on top of the wine and the height can be adjusted to the level of wine. In my case it is s 200L tank but I saw them between 100L and 2000L.

>> ph
Acidity is clear to people. More acid - more sour the taste. Think an orange and lemon
Ph meadures the opposite of acidity.
More ph - less acidity.
The problem we are discussing here is about the fact that the optimal level of acidity protects wine. My wine is less acid than it should be - so the expectation is that I should add more sulfites to protect it.
Further to this - there are two different kind of acidity - the ph meter only measuring one kind so doesn't provide the full picture. The TA is Total Acidity - all acidity levels added up. The guys are suggesting (and I agree with them) that I should invest into s TA kit. I need to learn a lot here.

I suggest to read some high level instructions on how to make wine then all this will start to make sense.

Also I worked out a plan then learned step by step - and obviously made a lot of mistakes. Will do better next year

 

[Ajmassa]

3rd keg - I'll take your comment as an encouragement - I'll gradually (over several days) add enough Tartaric to lower the ph to 3.6. Then add 5gm of sulfite.

.

Actually I’m a believer in “listening to your wine”
as I like to say. Meaning - not to force it to do something that it naturally is not allowing.
Im still learning he ropes myself, But My opinion is to not just add tartaric to 3.6. That’s a lot. Too much too add likely. I wouldn’t force 3.6 if your wine truly is currently 4.2. That’s 6g/L addition roughly. Probably would shoot TA through the roof and not taste good anynore.
But this is the fun part now! The part where science meets art. And knocking it down a few ticks while maintaining a pleasant tasting wine. Coming across situations like this is when you really start getting a feel for the process and learning a ton.
But experimenting on a whole batch is scary. Bench trials allows you to fine tune and do some trial and error— without the error happening to the whole batch.

And remember - higher Ph isn’t the end of the world. Just a characteristic that makes your wine unique and the way it is naturally wanting to be. I think lowering it just some without losing its integrity is likely the way to go. 3.6 is just a good reference point. But sometimes ya gotta call an audible.
And also- when in doubt you can always refer to
the red wine Bible for some insight. https://morewinemaking.com/web_files/intranet.morebeer.com/files/wredw.pdf

 

[Wolfpup]

First I am not knowledgeable - only starting - but have learned heaps from various documentation I read and more so from this forum.

MLF - As Meadmaker said - malo-lactic fermentation. The primary fermentation converts sugar to alcohol, the MLF is s secondary fermentation - converting an unpleasant acid into a pleasant one. Mostly applied to red wines by adding the appropriate bacteria.

VCT - variable capacity tank.
A stainless steel tub with a lid that sits on top of the wine and the height can be adjusted to the level of wine. In my case it is s 200L tank but I saw them between 100L and 2000L.

>> ph
Acidity is clear to people. More acid - more sour the taste. Think an orange and lemon
Ph meadures the opposite of acidity.
More ph - less acidity.
The problem we are discussing here is about the fact that the optimal level of acidity protects wine. My wine is less acid than it should be - so the expectation is that I should add more sulfites to protect it.
Further to this - there are two different kind of acidity - the ph meter only measuring one kind so doesn't provide the full picture. The TA is Total Acidity - all acidity levels added up. The guys are suggesting (and I agree with them) that I should invest into s TA kit. I need to learn a lot here.

I suggest to read some high level instructions on how to make wine then all this will start to make sense.

Also I worked out a plan then learned step by step - and obviously made a lot of mistakes. Will do better next year

Thank you Obelix. You're explanations are very clear and much appreciated. This is a great help to me in following your diary. Yes, I have a lot to learn.

Again, thank you. Best of luck with this batch.

 

[Ajmassa]

The PH meter stuff is very interesting. Went thru that calibration too, don’t really understand PH though.

.

Simplest way for comprehension-

Ph measures the strength of the acids in your wine. The lower the number- the stronger the acids

TA- titritable acid (or sometimes referred to as total acid) is the amount of acid. Given in g/L
Lots of acid? Closer to 1.0g/L will typically also show as being stronger too. maybe 3.2 ph (But not always)
They like to move in adverse directions. Raise TA- will lower Ph. And vice versa.

Check out that morewine manual link a couple posts back. Thing is extremely detailed. Not only giving step by steps/ but also telling you WHY. I think it’s well written.

 

[Obelix]

Ajmassa - re adding tartaric
Will apply caution - thanks.
Honestly I like the taste as is - that doesn't mean it won't be better with a bit more acidity.
The only way to learn is to be (slightly) adventurous

 

[Ajmassa]

Ajmassa - re adding tartaric
Will apply caution - thanks.
Honestly I like the taste as is - that doesn't mean it won't be better with a bit more acidity.
The only way to learn is to be (slightly) adventurous

I like adventures!
If that was my wine I think my plan of action would be to adjust to minimum <4.0 ph even tho you are happy with the taste as is. Especially with the planned 5ppm sulphites and low acid protection- something’s gonna give sooner or later
And Also monitoring TA making sure it wasn’t all out of wack. (Still not too late!)
It’s tough with those kegs I bet too. But in a perfect world- I’d pull a gallon or so- to get a few bottles of varying levels of ph adjustments. Noting taste and ph of each. And checking them in a few weeks before deciding how to adjust the whole batch.
But who knows tho- maybe you can just do nothing. Some so2 and let it age. When do you plan on bottling? (Thats a lot of wine to drink in 1 years time too btw)

 

[Obelix]

Will work on that gradually. Unfortunatelly don't have small containers to work on the batches less than 50L.

Previuously, I added some tartartic into one keg and the taste changed - got a bit like a white wine ting which I didn't like, but now after 3 months, that seemed to be nicely incorporated. So time will help to sort ti out. Will definitelly add some into the must next year.

re: TA
I need to find out where to find something I can use to measure TA.
Haven't paid enough attention to the TA tools previously. Need to re-trace the thread.

Figuring out that this "50L" keg may be less than 50L as I got around 60 bottles out of it. OK - filled to the brim, etc. but still it must be less.
Not to worry - as you said 150L is a lot of wine to cunsume in a year.
Was planning to bottle the next keg as the current set of bottles is consumed. The next one should be 3 months - will distribute some to friends an dmy (adult) kids. 5 bottles will stay behind - will see what I learn from them. There will be 5 bottles left aside from each keg - so we can compare the taste every 12 months.

 

[Slappy]

Hey Obelix,
How did your novatwist capsules turn out? I'm about to bottle a keg of my free run Grenache over the next few weeks and only have the screw cap bottles for now. All the pressings I have on oak are going under cork when they're ready. I took a sample from my free run keg tonight and it's crystal clear so with no oak to integrate I'm happy to bottle.
As for splitting off smaller batches to adjust the acid/ph have you considered racking a keg into 2x 20l cubes and using the remaining 8-10 litres to put in 2l flagons, with different acid additions to integrate and test before deciding what to do with the rest. I have 2 hpde 20l cubes I got for $8.50 each. They are fine for storing wine I've had some of mine in there since march and no problem at all. Though that could be of use.

 

[Obelix]

Hi Slappy,
The Novatwist turned out fine.
I could use them on all kind of bottles except on two weird ones.

Press down hard - twist to the right until locked.

How well they keep the air out we'll know soon enough, however everything seems fine.

At Au $0.36 per top - I'm planning to reuse them a few times

Actually I better share this comment in thst thread too...
Re : more storage.
It's a goid idea thanks, however, I'm now running out of space too

BTW...Curious about how your wine holds in plastic containers.
I had bad experience with it - changing the taste of wine after a while. Even in food grade plastic when purchased wine from private cellars. It would happen that I purchase wine in two reused water bottles and the taste would change in one in a fee hours.
Have other 'interesting" experiences with plastic containers.
Having said this - some bottles held OK.

And I'm not weird for responding at 1am..the World Cup - Croatia vs Russia about to start

 

[Slappy]

Hi Slappy,
The Novatwist turned out fine.
I could use them on all kind of bottles except on two weird ones.

Press down hard - twist to the right until locked.

How well they keep the air out we'll know soon enough, however everything seems fine.

At Au $0.36 per top - I'm planning to reuse them a few times

Actually I better share this comment in thst thread too...
Re : more storage.
It's a goid idea thanks, however, I'm now running out of space too

BTW...Curious about how your wine holds in plastic containers.
I had bad experience with it - changing the taste of wine after a while. Even in food grade plastic when purchased wine from private cellars. It would happen that I purchase wine in two reused water bottles and the taste would change in one in a fee hours.
Have other 'interesting" experiences with plastic containers.
Having said this - some bottles held OK.

And I'm not weird for responding at 1am..the World Cup - Croatia vs Russia about to start

Hey Obelix,
How's your Shiraz going? Just thought I'd give an update re: plastic storage. I just updated my thread on my old vine Grenache and have done my final blending. The wine I held in 20 litre HDPE (no 2) cubes was absolutely fine after 6 months in there, was oaked for 4 months. I detected absolutely zero issues with the wine it is very good and now the remainder is in stainless kegs and glass for final ageing. I'm waiting around for next vintage now!