Benefits to Combining Yeast?

[Donz]

I am actually planning to use 2 yeasts on this years crush. I have 4 fermentation tanks, all will have the same grape combination, 2 of the tanks will be pitched with BM4x4 and the other 2 tanks will pitch K1-v1116. Once fermentation is complete, I will combine and press all together.

I saw a video of Duckhorn Vineyard in Cali and the lead winemaker always uses this method to bring out different characteristics with the different yeasts.

 

[winemanden]

Now you've read everyones views it's down to you.
Only word of caution I will add, try it on a small scale first and let us know how it turns out. Your wine, you're the judge.

 

[Trick]

Some WE kits provide two different yeasts and instruction doesn't say you must either split into small batches or pitch at different time. That mean is kit manufacture's mine that the mixed yeast can work.
Many professional winemakers are pushing natural fermentation with native yeasts to improve complexity. These wild yeast are mixed with various of strains.
So co-fermentation can be an approach to go since for kit winemaking, we cannot use wild yeast, however we can try mixed yeast to mimic the wild yeast. Remember, the commercial yeasts were all separated from the mixture in the first place. They know how to survive with other strains. They are not created by human.
Think out side of the box. I would not make a conclusion before trying.
Some competition can be expected between the yeast strains. But that happens after the population is large enough. The minority can still produce some unique matter in the wine before they die out. That can control part of complexity.
Using small batches with different yeast is a good approach however it makes process too complicated and sometime it is not worth the effort if a lazy way can achieve the similar result.

 

[Deezil]

Thinking outside the box, as it's said around here, can get you in trouble.

Kit manufacturers can send two yeasts with their kits because they've tested the fermentation process with that juice and those yeasts.
There's always the chance as well, that they are both offered because of customer feedback asking for a different yeast, so they include two as to give the winemaker a choice. If your choice is to co-ferment, you may actually void the warranty. Hard telling unless there's fine print. If it's a "one or the other" and you choose "C - both"... You'd be out in the breeze, on your own.

Professional winemakers may allow natural fermentation to happen, but to say that the business is "pushing" for it, is a stretch. They go this route because they understand the risks, they know what signs to look for, and they want to be original for their product to sell.

They don't all know how to survive with eachother. Some yeast terminate other yeast strains; some compete for resources without being terminated, and will then lead to off flavors and aromas because the situation has become stressful. Correcting these issues isn't something one can just willy-nilly fix.

The "unique matter" isn't always desirable.



Separated fermentations with blending on the back end is much safer.
If that's too complicated, then just make wine to be happy and have fun, and don't try to keep up or compare yourself with the commercial guys.
But recommending that people play with native yeasts is always tricky business, and not something I would just recommend to anyone that comes across my post on an open forum..


I lost 75lbs of blackberries to a native yeast that made the wine smell like gym socks and vomit.
Whole year's harvest got flushed because I wanted to play with native yeast.
Wasn't the complexity that I was hoping for.

 

[Steve172360]

Great little thread with lots of different opinions. I searched for this as my red WE kit came with 71B and EC1118 telling me to pitch them at the same time. It is currently in secondary but tasting on the transfer was really nice. I was surprised as I thought EC1118 was to dominant to work another yeast. I keep a few packs for stalled country wines I experiment with.
Any way, the reason for my post, did any one come across a good source of reading material on this subject?

 

[Jovimaple]

Great little thread with lots of different opinions. I searched for this as my red WE kit came with 71B and EC1118 telling me to pitch them at the same time. It is currently in secondary but tasting on the transfer was really nice. I was surprised as I thought EC1118 was to dominant to work another yeast. I keep a few packs for stalled country wines I experiment with.
Any way, the reason for my post, did any one come across a good source of reading material on this subject?

Another way to experiment would be to split the batch into 2 buckets and ferment them separately with each getting one type of yeast, then combine them back after fermentation.

 

[vinny]

Great little thread with lots of different opinions. I searched for this as my red WE kit came with 71B and EC1118 telling me to pitch them at the same time. It is currently in secondary but tasting on the transfer was really nice. I was surprised as I thought EC1118 was to dominant to work another yeast. I keep a few packs for stalled country wines I experiment with.
Any way, the reason for my post, did any one come across a good source of reading material on this subject?

A while back, Bryan, @winemaker81, posted a thread about 1118 being a killing yeast that will overpower the weaker strains. I suppose you might get some of the characteristics of the other yeast before they are killed off, but over time 1118 will kill off the others.

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/ec-1118-is-a-killer.76951/post-853805
The going joke around here is that 1118 will ferment a rock. It is extremely aggressive and requires low nutrient. It is why it is in almost every kit. It's a failsafe that ensures no matter what a newby does the must will ferment. People often note that it strips the flavor of a wine, but it is just that it doesn't produce and accent many of the qualities other yeasts will, leaving them lifeless in comparison.

I have found the most beneficial tweak I have done to kits so far is to toss 1118 into the freezer and choose a complementing yeast. It makes a huge difference to the flavor profile. I found the cheaper WE kits (Classic?) were all pretty similar in flavor. Changing the yeast gives them all a distinct quality and really makes them comparable to the higher end kits. I NEVER use 1118 in my kits. Sometimes country wines, but never in the kits. I add nutrient as a fail safe to ensure the levels are adequate for the substituted yeast.

Here's a couple of ways I decide which yeast I want to use.

 

[BigDaveK]

Great little thread with lots of different opinions. I searched for this as my red WE kit came with 71B and EC1118 telling me to pitch them at the same time.

I'm also surprised they advised adding them at the same time. I used that combination in my step-fed dessert wines last year but not pitching them at the same time since 71B is sensitive and 1118 a killer.

A while back, Bryan, @winemaker81, posted a thread about 1118 being a killing yeast that will overpower the weaker strains. I suppose you might get some of the characteristics of the other yeast before they are killed off, but over time 1118 will kill off the others.

I wonder if there would be fireworks with two killer yeasts? Would they call a truce? Would one be more vicious than the other?

 

[cmason1957]

Whenever I have had the kits with two different yeasts supplied, I generally pitch the 71B (or whatever it is) first, let it go for a few days and then when fermentation slows down pitch the EC-1118. Don't know if that is the "right" thing to do or not, but I just can't see pitching in something that is probably going to be out competed by EC-1118 at the same time.

Ask 10 winemakers, get at least 11 opinions.

 

[vinny]

I'm also surprised they advised adding them at the same time. I used that combination in my step-fed dessert wines last year but not pitching them at the same time since 71B is sensitive and 1118 a killer.


I wonder if there would be fireworks with two killer yeasts? Would they call a truce? Would one be more vicious than the other?

Pretty sure that would be one hell of a ferment as they tried to out compete each other. My pails were already inoculated, I added a starter and they went like gang busters. Done in a few days. I don't know if they were all killers, but that amount of yeast alone was enough. That was the first time I had to clean up the floor from a little overflow.

 

[winemaker81]

I wonder if there would be fireworks with two killer yeasts? Would they call a truce? Would one be more vicious than the other?

Yeast are unintelligent, so the most likely scenario is that each reproduces, eats, and excretes as much as it can.

Whenever I have had the kits with two different yeasts supplied, I generally pitch the 71B (or whatever it is) first, let it go for a few days and then when fermentation slows down pitch the EC-1118. Don't know if that is the "right" thing to do or not, but I just can't see pitching in something that is probably going to be out competed by EC-1118 at the same time.

Good advice. Depending on circumstances the EC-1118 may not be necessary, but either way, the first yeast, which will normally impart more character than EC-1118, will have a chance to do its part.

 

[BigDaveK]

Well I couldn't leave this alone.
Turns out there are 3 viruses that each produce a unique toxin, K1, K2, and K28 and the host yeast is immune to the effect. So it seems to me if two killer yeast are added to a must and they produce the same toxin they should go on their happy way. Otherwise I think it would be an example of microscopic MAD.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrmicro1347/
Those little buggers never cease to amaze me.

 

[winemaker81]

Well I couldn't leave this alone.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

This reinforces my thought that the yeast that reproduces the fastest will win the race, which reinforces my opinion that having a good starter is the best way to ensure a good ferment.

 

[vinny]

Well I couldn't leave this alone.

I appreciate that. Getting caught up takes so much less time than searching it out myself.. And yes it is endlessly interesting.

 

[ChuckD]

Well I couldn't leave this alone.
Turns out there are 3 viruses that each produce a unique toxin, K1, K2, and K28 and the host yeast is immune to the effect. So it seems to me if two killer yeast are added to a must and they produce the same toxin they should go on their happy way. Otherwise I think it would be an example of microscopic MAD.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrmicro1347/
Those little buggers never cease to amaze me.

Killer yeast… I learn something new everyday

 

[BigDaveK]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Lord no, the acquisition of knowledge is never ever a bad thing.

It's a little annoying, though, when a thought/question pirates my brain and all other planned tasks are put on hold.

 

[BigDaveK]

Killer yeast… I learn something new everyday

The blame/credit for me is @winemaker81's post of a couple months ago. I had no idea either until then.

 

[Steve172360]

A while back, Bryan, @winemaker81, posted a thread about 1118 being a killing yeast that will overpower the weaker strains. I suppose you might get some of the characteristics of the other yeast before they are killed off, but over time 1118 will kill off the others.

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/ec-1118-is-a-killer.76951/post-853805
The going joke around here is that 1118 will ferment a rock. It is extremely aggressive and requires low nutrient. It is why it is in almost every kit. It's a failsafe that ensures no matter what a newby does the must will ferment. People often note that it strips the flavor of a wine, but it is just that it doesn't produce and accent many of the qualities other yeasts will, leaving them lifeless in comparison.

I have found the most beneficial tweak I have done to kits so far is to toss 1118 into the freezer and choose a complementing yeast. It makes a huge difference to the flavor profile. I found the cheaper WE kits (Classic?) were all pretty similar in flavor. Changing the yeast gives them all a distinct quality and really makes them comparable to the higher end kits. I NEVER use 1118 in my kits. Sometimes country wines, but never in the kits. I add nutrient as a fail safe to ensure the levels are adequate for the substituted yeast.

Here's a couple of ways I decide which yeast I want to use.

Thanks for information and the attachments. I have scanned the paper and it look like a great aid is selectin the yeast for the flavours you want. I think I will defiantly try using something different to the EC1118 on my next kit.

 

[Steve172360]

Whenever I have had the kits with two different yeasts supplied, I generally pitch the 71B (or whatever it is) first, let it go for a few days and then when fermentation slows down pitch the EC-1118. Don't know if that is the "right" thing to do or not, but I just can't see pitching in something that is probably going to be out competed by EC-1118 at the same time.

Ask 10 winemakers, get at least 11 opinions.

That approach would have also made more sense to me. As I never had two in a pack before, I just followed the instructions. Defiantly going to experiment next time.

 

[winemaker81]

That approach would have also made more sense to me. As I never had two in a pack before, I just followed the instructions. Defiantly going to experiment next time.

Yeast is the cheapest and safest area for experimentation. Cheap, as most yeast is under $2 USD per packet.

Safe? EVERY wine yeast will ferment any wine. Add a "white" wine yeast to a red, or the reverse? It will ferment out. Different aromas and flavors may be produced that are not optimal for the fruit type, but a satisfactory result will occur, assuming everything goes well.

IMO, the most important thing to watch for is nutrient requirements -- if using a high nutrient yeast, ensure that enough yeast nutrient is added to avoid producing H2S. A fair number of folks are experimenting with Renaissance yeast strains, all of which are non-H2S producing.