RJ Spagnols Best time to add oak cubes to aging wine?

[Kross]

When is the best time to add oak cubes to aging wine? Is it best at the start of aging for a month or two or at the end of aging?

 

[cmason1957]

Since during aging the wine is just sitting there, maturing (almost doing nothing) it seems to me you might as well add them at the beginning, but it really probably doesn't make much difference. You add them to the wine, you leave them for 4-8 weeks.

 

[Noontime]

Oak will add different things depending on when its added. If oak is present during fermentation its smoother and the yeast create smooth tannins, after fermentation it adds harsher (not bad, no judgement ) tannins and more of the strong oak flavor. There's a lot of info on the internet you can google.

 

[winemaker81]

I agree that aging oak can be added at any time after the wine clears. I leave oak in longer than most (up to 6 months) and have noted that the wine undergoes evolution during this time, some from oak influence, and some from general aging. I recommend adding oak earlier as that gives you more time during bulk aging to monitor how it develops.

 

[Kross]

My thought was if I add it in the end it would be easier to take out when bottling. Maybe cubes aren’t the way to go? Any advice on the best way to add oak?

 

[winemaker81]

My thought was if I add it in the end it would be easier to take out when bottling. Maybe cubes aren’t the way to go? Any advice on the best way to add oak?

"best" is very subjective. Spirals and staves are the easiest to get in and out, if you use nylon fishing line to suspend the oak, but they are more costly. Cubes are cheaper and more configurable (you can mix different types), but require racking to remove, unless you purchase one of the tubes produced for containing cubes inside a carboy. The tubes are a bit pricey (~$25 USD IIRC), but are reusable.

@Mike - Next Level Oak sells a product something like a spiral, which comes with a special drilled stopper so removal is very easy. I used these last year and was pleased with the ease of use.

I mostly use cubes, and probably use less than most. I leave them in until I have a need to rack, which can be many months.

 

[Noontime]

One of the most important things to remember with barrel alternatives is the surface area dictates how quickly they transfer their goodies to your wine. Chips are often used during fermentation because the give everything up within a few days or a week; when added after fermentation this results in a harsher oak that takes time to mellow. Cubes are a bit slower and provide a little time to evaluate, and staves and spirals are much slower (and add a bit more mellow flavor). There was an interesting article in Wines & Vines (now Wine Business Monthly) quite a few years ago about a study testing all these, and said they pretty much even out after a couple of years, with smaller surface area taking longer to mellow and larger surface area needing time to perform (like a barrel). All except for dust and chips which were recommended only for fermentation.

 

[nwwoods]

This thread reminds me that it was stated for FWK, there is no use in more than two weeks, that the wine's gotten all its going to get from the oak at that point.

Presumably then this is strictly for the chips that FWK includes, and that if one wants to later add cubes or spirals to finished but unaged wine, somewhat longer for cubes, and considerably longer for spirals, more benefit can be obtained?

 

[winemaker81]

This thread reminds me that it was stated for FWK, there is no use in more than two weeks, that the wine's gotten all its going to get from the oak at that point.

Was that for the oak, or for the extended maceration extracting from the pomace?

Presumably then this is strictly for the chips that FWK includes, and that if one wants to later add cubes or spirals to finished but unaged wine, somewhat longer for cubes, and considerably longer for spirals, more benefit can be obtained?

My experience is that cubes are exhausted in ~3 months. I don't use staves and spirals, but based upon the shape, thickness, and surface area, I expect it's longer. How much? My best guess is no more than 5 months.

Unless I have a different reason to rack, e.g., heavy lees, I don't remove the cubes as they don't matter. It saves an unnecessary step.

 

[wineview]

Oak will add different things depending on when its added. If oak is present during fermentation its smoother and the yeast create smooth tannins, after fermentation it adds harsher (not bad, no judgement ) tannins and more of the strong oak flavor. There's a lot of info on the internet you can google.

If I understand you correctly, you suggest adding oak right after pitching the yeast? Do you then add the same spirals to secondary for another four weeks or so?

 

[wineview]

I agree that aging oak can be added at any time after the wine clears. I leave oak in longer than most (up to 6 months) and have noted that the wine undergoes evolution during this time, some from oak influence, and some from general aging. I recommend adding oak earlier as that gives you more time during bulk aging to monitor how it develops.

Would you add after MLF or during?

 

[winemaker81]

Would you add after MLF or during?

I've not intentionally done MLF, so I can't say. From what I've read, I'd add the oak up front, as it should not interfere with MLF.

 

[winemaker81]

If I understand you correctly, you suggest adding oak right after pitching the yeast? Do you then add the same spirals to secondary for another four weeks or so?

While I cannot speak for @Noontime, I add shredded oak or chips before pitching, and do not use products with less surface area per volume during fermentation. Fermentation is a short process, so surface area matters.

Post-fermentation, I use coarser oak products, typically cubes.

 

[wineview]

"best" is very subjective. Spirals and staves are the easiest to get in and out, if you use nylon fishing line to suspend the oak, but they are more costly. Cubes are cheaper and more configurable (you can mix different types), but require racking to remove, unless you purchase one of the tubes produced for containing cubes inside a carboy. The tubes are a bit pricey (~$25 USD IIRC), but are reusable.

@Mike - Next Level Oak sells a product something like a spiral, which comes with a special drilled stopper so removal is very easy. I used these last year and was pleased with the ease of use.

I mostly use cubes, and probably use less than most. I leave them in until I have a need to rack, which can be many months.

I just went to the The Next Level Oak website and couldn’t find a price list. So I called and had a 25 minute conversation with Mike the owner/inventor of this product. By the end of our talk, he asked me my address and offered to send me a kit for free. I’m not suggesting that everyone bombard him with calls and expect the same. My point is that he is really into his product and very proud of it. While you are on his website, check out The Mead House Podcast episode 148. Mike is the guest and explains how he came up with this system. It’s worth a listen.

 

[Ct Winemaker]

Oak powder (dust) or very fine chips are added prior to (during) fermentation to aid in tannin development, this does not add any oak "taste" to the wine. Adding oak after the wine is "still" via oak barrel aging, cubes, chips, staves, etc., adds the oak tastes. They all affect the wine a little differently. We like oak cubes that are toasted similar to a barrel (toasted on one side, not fully through) as they add more complexity to the oak affect. Staves would be similar. Chips are a consistent toast level, so tend to add lest complex (more even) affects. Timing is variable and depends on what you use typically based on "months" not weeks. For example, Stavin suggests 8 oz medium toast American oak cubes for about 2 months to achieve "oaking" similar to 50% of a new barrel.

I hope this helps a little.

 

[Ct Winemaker]

Should have clarified. The Stavin recommendation is for a 59 gallon neutral barrel (8 oz), it would just be less by proportion for a carboy. In regards to MLF, we usually wait unit MLF is complete but there really is no reason not to add the oak (cubes, chips, staves, etc) while in Malo.

 

[Kross]

If I’m not aging in a barrel is aging in a glass carboy preferred to aging in say a plastic Speidel?

 

[Brian55]

If I’m not aging in a barrel is aging in a glass carboy preferred to aging in say a plastic Speidel?

I personally prefer fermenting in a Speidel and aging in glass carboys, but there are some who use the 20L Speidels for aging without issue.

 

[Brant]

I have a 3 month old cab kit aging in a 6 gal carboy and I was planning to oak cube it. It didn't have any wood in the kit when I brewed it.

I assume I can add oak at this point and I have oak cubes. Any recommendations on how much should I use (in weight) and how long should I hold (months)?

 

[winemaker81]

Any recommendations on how much should I use (in weight) and how long should I hold (months)?

Generally, 1 to 2 oz of cubes for 19-23 liters of wine. Personally? I'd go with 1-1/2 oz, and if you want really light oak, taste test every few weeks. If you like more oak, I'd probably not taste test for a month or 2.

How long? You can remove the oak at any time you like. For my 2020 reds, I used 5 oz in 54 liter (14.25 US gallon) barrels for a full year. Once the oak is expended (3 to 5 months), it doesn't hurt to leave it in.