Black Grapes

[David Violante]

I have a colleague who is giving me a bunch of mixed black grapes and I want to make sure I’m doing the math right. I usually make 5-6 gallons at a time and so this is my first ‘large’ batch as a home winemaker.

I have 23 lugs that are 36 pounders each. I know this is a bit of a sliding scale depending on the grape type and size, but if it’s 3 lugs per 10 gallons, that’s roughly 77 gallons of must and then around 50-ish gallons of wine?

As a follow-up, I’m concerned about fermenting that much in the house because of the CO2 production and so am thinking of fermenting in the shed. The outside temperature should be 45-60.

I will use two 40 gallon and one 30 gallon brute containers. I’ll also do a saignee of 10%. I’m thinking of using RC212 unless there’s something specifically better for these.

Does this all sound right and any suggestions as I move forward?

Thank you tons…

 

[Hazelemere]

leave the window open where you ferment if you ferment indoors. How warm is your shed?

 

[winemaker81]

I checked my notes from last fall, the Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, and Merlot. We grossed about 11.3 gallons each from five 4 lug batches.

• Grossed 9 gallons from each batch with "medium" press. It's a basket press so there are no gauges.
• Grossed another 11.5 gallons total when pressing the pomace hard.

I didn't measure it together, but it add up to a gross of 57 US gallons from twenty 36 lb lugs.

4 lugs fills a 32 gallon brute a bit over half full. 5 lugs is as much as I'm comfortable doing in one batch, due to difficulty in moving it and concern that the pressure may be more than the plastic can handle.

I had the above plus 260 lbs of other grapes fermenting in my cellar. CO2 wasn't a problem.

If you shed varies much in temperature, that could stick the fermentation. Fermenting at 60 F is not a problem, but if the temperature dips 10-15 degrees at night? That may be a problem.

 

[cmason1957]

The CO2 produced from 77 gallons of just should not be enough to cause you issues. I have done more than that before with no issues.

 

[David Violante]

leave the window open where you ferment if you ferment indoors. How warm is your shed?

The shed isn’t insulated so it would be the same temperature as outside, basically. I think, based on everyone’s posts so far, that I’ll do it indoors in my ‘cellar’ and keep the window open a little to vent if I need. That will at least maintain the temperature.

 

[David Violante]

Tested the grapes… 25.5 brix and 3.5 pH. They’re currently in cold storage as we’re in Scottsdale for a few days then Sedona a few days. Will pickup and crush on Monday. Just ordered all the supplies…

 

[FlamingoEmporium]

Head to Lowe’s and buy a cheap Co2 alarm.

 

[sour_grapes]

Head to Lowe’s and buy a cheap Co2 alarm.

I don't believe they sell alarms for CO2. One can easily get CO (carbon monoxide) alarms, but carbon dioxide is not usually a problem.

 

[distancerunner]

We fermented ~1700lbs. (47 lugs) in my cellar this year. This is typical for us. CO2 not a problem.

Nine and a quarter lugs will (333lbs.) will fit nicely in a forty four gallon Brute. That’s roughly thirty three gallons per container which is 75% of capacity.

Finished wine, still on lees, is 88.5 (335L) gallons. That’s roughly fifteen pounds per gallon. We use a number fifty size basket press. We do not do a hard press. We allowed the pomace to “relax” twice after the initial press. We did not break up the pomace and did not do a second press. Pomace was moist at the end of pressing.

Fluctuating temperature in a shed, as Bryan points out, is not a great idea. The risk of sticking increases as fermentation temps drop. Even is fermentation completes at low temp color extraction will suffer.

Extracting anthocyanin can also be a problem at cool temps. Anthocyanin binds with tannin over time and drops out. That softens the impression of acidity in the finished wine.

Fermenting in the cellar beats walking to the shed to punch down four times a day.

 

[David Violante]

@winemaker81 & @distancerunner thank you for your posts… they are very helpful and encouraging for what I would like to do. I decided to ferment inside where I can control the temperature a bit better and exhaust the CO2 vía fan in the window if needed. I think two 44gallon brutes sounds like it will work best and I have an additional 20 gallon if I need to spill over.

The next trick will be bulk aging. I’ll be using everything I have and am considering purchasing another 14 gallon demijohn or two, to reduce the number of 3-gallon and 5-gallon containers to allow for more bulk to age in contact.

I’ll post pics when it all kicks off.

 

[David Violante]

Head to Lowe’s and buy a cheap Co2 alarm.

Or use tea lights on the floor… LOL

 

[distancerunner]

@winemaker81 & @distancerunner thank you for your posts… they are very helpful and encouraging for what I would like to do. I decided to ferment inside where I can control the temperature a bit better and exhaust the CO2 vía fan in the window if needed. I think two 44gallon brutes sounds like it will work best and I have an additional 20 gallon if I need to spill over.

The next trick will be bulk aging. I’ll be using everything I have and am considering purchasing another 14 gallon demijohn or two, to reduce the number of 3-gallon and 5-gallon containers to allow for more bulk to age in contact.

I’ll post pics when it all kicks off.

Disclaimer: I am not an expert.

What we’ve learned over the last three years is that bulk storage in large containers makes better wine. It is also slower. Typically the wine is aging in VCT’s or plastic aging tanks. The smallest is 100L. The largest is 500L. The VCT’s are not at max capacity.

Depending on the wine and the goal, they age for up to two years. That would be a big red. Roses or my grandfather’s blend, six months to a year.

Bulk aging isn’t work free. Biweekly or monthly tastings along with lab work is key to decision making.

The difference between is decent homemade wine or darn near commercial quality.

Your patience will be rewarded.

 

[David Violante]

I appreciate the dialogue and the experience this forum brings, I wish most things worked this way, which makes me appreciate this all the more.

I also have to work on degassing, unless there’s something else I need to do. My wines seem a tad harsh and I wonder if time or pH is the issue. Then, just last week I tried something new which really made an incredible difference in a ‘recent’ Merlot. It was a 2022 ferment that bulk aged until early 2024 when I bottled it. It tasted ok but seemed a little harsh still. So, I whizzed it in a food processor for a few quick short bursts. Holy moly… it fizzed a bit and quickly settled, and then tasted smooth, mellow, not harsh at all. The difference was absolutely amazing. I would have thought bulk aging for a year and a half would have allowed enough CO2 out, but maybe not. I’m going to try to give degassing a head start from now on, to see if that helps.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

A bit late to the party but here's my $0.02 -

I think your estimates of must/finished wine are in the right ballpark. The calculation that I use comes out a bit higher:
828lb (0.414T) = 53gal/200L finished wine, 88gal/333L must of which 31gal/117L is must solids

So I think you'll need that extra Brute (remember to leave room for the cap to rise!)

If you're concerned about it being a bit cool - those Brutes should give you enough biomass that it will keep itself warm once fermentation kicks off, but if you need a helping hand you can put an aquarium heater in each one. Just remember to take them out before you punch down (and switch them off before removing from the must, they get fried if they are not submerged)

 

[winemaker81]

I would have thought bulk aging for a year and a half would have allowed enough CO2 out, but maybe not. I’m going to try to give degassing a head start from now on, to see if that helps.

You also introduced O2, which softens the tannins AKA breathing. Decant a bottle and let it breath, or use an aerator. See how much difference that makes.

Regarding degassing, some few wines refuse to degas naturally. IME it's rare, but it happens.

After pressing, I use a drill-mounted stirring rod and stir each wine for 1 minute, changing direction halfway through. This expels a lot of CO2, and the wine finishes degassing over the following weeks.

Some folks degas near bottling time, but I typically do the final racking and bottling in one action, and the wine may have been in the secondary for a year at that point, so that doesn't work for my methodology.

Regarding containers -- this is what 130 lbs of Vidal looks like in a 20 gallon Brute. Have extra primaries on hand, 'cuz you may need 'em!

 

[FlamingoEmporium]

Or use tea lights on the floor… LOL

I’ve seen that movie

 

[winemaker81]

I also have to work on degassing, unless there’s something else I need to do.

I opened a 2023 Vidal for cooking and to serve with dinner, bottled in June. I was surprised -- the bottle had a tiny spritz to it. Not enough that the cork would even think about budging, but definitely there.

That's after 8 months in bulk. My previous comment about wines not fully clearing rears its head.

 

[David Violante]

A bit late to the party but here's my $0.02 -

I love your $0.02… I was waffling a little between the 32 & 44 gallon brutes, but it’s far easier to have room and not need it than the alternative. It’s supposed to be in the 30s at night and the 60s / 70s during the day next week, so I think it may be easier to do these inside with such a swing. Plus I’ll step feed to try and help regulate the temperature.

 

[David Violante]

Update.... Picked up the 23 lugs of grapes from cold storage, crushed, tested, added sacrificial oak, and SO2. There was some powdery mildew on a few clusters in some lugs and the fruit otherwise looked fairly good for the delay. To that end, I doubled the initial SO2 to be on the safe side.

80 Gallons of Must, Brix at 26, and the pH climbed from 3.5 a week ago to 3.8, this is about 24 hours after settling from the crush.

Working on acid addition amount to bring it back down to 3.5 or 3.6 and will pitch the yeast next using RC212. Below are two 44 gallon brutes and a 30 gallon from the LHBC. Once fermentation takes off I'll add Fermaid O (step feed) and MLB.

Should have taken a picture with the CD on the red bin. We (son and I) crushed half, mixed, then brought 5 gallons at a time into the house to the brutes. Repeated for the remaining. I was dreaming a LOT about @crushday 's operations...

 

[David Violante]

…and we’re off! Initial pH was 3.8 and TA 6.75. I added tartaric at 1g/gallon and brought the pH to 3.5 but the TA went up to 9.5… yikes! I don’t think it was all mixed throughout though, as today it’s ph 3.7 and TA of 6.75. I used a yeast starter and pitched yesterday and it’s moving along today with a nice cap.

So… since the paddle I have for a 5 gallon is just not going to work for a 44 gallon brute, I scoured the site for suggestions on cap punch down and mixing. I landed on a large, circular drill mounted stainless paint/plaster mixer. I can use it by hand to do punch downs and on the drill to mix everything really well including things off the bottom. Love it. Next is Fermaid O and MB, although with a pH that high I’m not sure.