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Just to clarify, the plan is to use a drill and mixer for punchdowns?
Black Grapes
- Thread starter David Violante
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I’ve been using the mixer as a punch down tool by hand, much as you would use a …regular?… punch down tool. I did find it helpful to mix things up at the bottom and when I added some tartaric acid and nutrients at the beginning. I tried a large paddle but the must was really thick. A slow speed on the drill did the trick. Haven’t used the drill since though. The best part is that it was $15.
We’re down to between 5 and 10 brix among the three vessels, and maintaining 76F. I did place a box fan in the window which has been really helpful.
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We’re down to between 5 and 10 brix among the three vessels, and maintaining 76F. I did place a box fan in the window which has been really helpful.
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- Joined
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That works!
SG made it down to 1.010 and I pressed to quite a few glass carboys yesterday. Took a heck of a time with a 25# press.
Fermenting still going on in the carboys this morning but I sense a bit of H2S. At first I thought it was the CO2, but it’s nagging me. Not sure why it’s there, I even upped the nutrients.
I added a double dose of SO2 and the SG is just about 0.998. As I understand it, splash racking is helpful prior to going towards something like Reduless. While I want to nip this early, should I wait a few days until the gross lees are somewhat compacted and rack off of them and then splash rack?
There’s also a 14 gallon demijohn not in the picture.
Fermenting still going on in the carboys this morning but I sense a bit of H2S. At first I thought it was the CO2, but it’s nagging me. Not sure why it’s there, I even upped the nutrients.
I added a double dose of SO2 and the SG is just about 0.998. As I understand it, splash racking is helpful prior to going towards something like Reduless. While I want to nip this early, should I wait a few days until the gross lees are somewhat compacted and rack off of them and then splash rack?
There’s also a 14 gallon demijohn not in the picture.
Stir the wine vigorously now to drive off the H2S. If you have it, you'll certainly know it when you start stirring. My understanding is there are two issues involved -- one is stressed yeast producing H2S and the other is the H2S forming mercaptans. K-meta and stirring will handle the H2S.
Since you caught it early, that may be all that is necessary. Don't be in a hurry to use Reduless, unless you need it.
Understood - if the gross lees have settled out but not yet compacted, I imagine racking off them would be helpful as well? I could then let the collected gross lees compact and see how that segregated wine fares. If good, add back, if not, feed the septic system.
IMO that's a good approach.
Racked off the gross lees into 54L demijohns and the smell is ever so slight. I’ll stir a few more times for that and to help the release of CO2. Should the stirring (using a lees stirrer / degasser) draw down air or just enough to release gas?
Also, started with about 80 gallons must, finished with 50 gallons wine. About a lug and a half or so didn’t make it to the crusher. Below the dark colored carboy is vino and the lighter one is the remaining solids compressing.
Nice! If you have a convenient space, i would put that carboy with the leftover/compressing lees up on a shelf/bench/countertop so that you can easily rack it off without needing to pump...
Update on this project - it has been a most wonderful experience with a lot of learning on my part.
A few weeks ago I noticed a white film on the top of the wine in two of the demijohns. That's odd, I thought. It was fragile and broke up a bit and some floated down into the wine while the rest I was able to pull up with a paper towel. There was a slight hint of vinegar prior to cleaning and none afterwards. The wine tasted and smelled good otherwise. I dosed with SO2 and cleaned / sanitized / replaced the bungs and airlocks. Last week I saw the same thing happening and thought, what the heck?! I did all the same things and then it struck me. What's the pH? 3.7 at last check, 3.7 now.
According to the chart of ppm free SO2 necessary against a particular pH, I would need 55ppm or 55mg/L. According to several online winemaking SO2 calculators, I would need to add 5.16G of KMBS to a 54L Demijohn to achieve 55ppm. According to my scale that's a full teaspoon.
What I HAD been doing, was adding 1/4t per 5-6 gallons, which ends up being 3/4t for a 54L (14.27G) Demijohn. I had not considered the pH. Another lesson.
So, all of my additions were lower than what they needed to be, and after having splash racked for H2S, I'm sure were also not enough to protect the wine that now had some additional oxygen in it. I didn't do MLF because of the original pH, but am thinking I should have, to eat up some of the resources of other bacteria. I could have always added tartaric to lower the pH. Another lesson.
Here I am today with a few more lessons learned. I'll add an actual double dose of SO2 and I purchased Bactiless just in case.
I'm open to any thoughts and suggestions too...!
A few weeks ago I noticed a white film on the top of the wine in two of the demijohns. That's odd, I thought. It was fragile and broke up a bit and some floated down into the wine while the rest I was able to pull up with a paper towel. There was a slight hint of vinegar prior to cleaning and none afterwards. The wine tasted and smelled good otherwise. I dosed with SO2 and cleaned / sanitized / replaced the bungs and airlocks. Last week I saw the same thing happening and thought, what the heck?! I did all the same things and then it struck me. What's the pH? 3.7 at last check, 3.7 now.
According to the chart of ppm free SO2 necessary against a particular pH, I would need 55ppm or 55mg/L. According to several online winemaking SO2 calculators, I would need to add 5.16G of KMBS to a 54L Demijohn to achieve 55ppm. According to my scale that's a full teaspoon.
What I HAD been doing, was adding 1/4t per 5-6 gallons, which ends up being 3/4t for a 54L (14.27G) Demijohn. I had not considered the pH. Another lesson.
So, all of my additions were lower than what they needed to be, and after having splash racked for H2S, I'm sure were also not enough to protect the wine that now had some additional oxygen in it. I didn't do MLF because of the original pH, but am thinking I should have, to eat up some of the resources of other bacteria. I could have always added tartaric to lower the pH. Another lesson.
Here I am today with a few more lessons learned. I'll add an actual double dose of SO2 and I purchased Bactiless just in case.
I'm open to any thoughts and suggestions too...!
So looking back it seems like you started fermenting end october, so about 2 months in? If you added a double dose of Kmeta back when you hd a hint of H2S, I doubt MLF will be successful at this stage. MLB are sensitive to SO2 and it seems that the total SO2 added (rather than free SO2) is the relevant factor.
How does it taste? I always find it hard to evaluate red wine at this early stage, but you should at least be able to get some sense of acidity, fruitiness etc as well as any overt flaws. If it seems on track, I would not be inclined to worry unduly. Certainly, clean out any growth around the neck of your demijohn and sanitize the area with KMBS spray or alcohol, but then I'd just keep doing what you're doing, ie monitor and add KMBS at appropriate intervals.
Do you have any means of testing for SO2? The '1 tsp = 55ppm' rule is a reasonable strategy, but since you've already added quite a bit of KMBS (and are targeting a high-ish level) it would be nice to make data driven additions if possible.
Finally I wouldn't be overly worried about the high pH. There are many GREAT wines in that pH 3.7-3.8 range, they just need a bit more attention to make sure opportunistic bugs don't take hold.
How does it taste? I always find it hard to evaluate red wine at this early stage, but you should at least be able to get some sense of acidity, fruitiness etc as well as any overt flaws. If it seems on track, I would not be inclined to worry unduly. Certainly, clean out any growth around the neck of your demijohn and sanitize the area with KMBS spray or alcohol, but then I'd just keep doing what you're doing, ie monitor and add KMBS at appropriate intervals.
Do you have any means of testing for SO2? The '1 tsp = 55ppm' rule is a reasonable strategy, but since you've already added quite a bit of KMBS (and are targeting a high-ish level) it would be nice to make data driven additions if possible.
Finally I wouldn't be overly worried about the high pH. There are many GREAT wines in that pH 3.7-3.8 range, they just need a bit more attention to make sure opportunistic bugs don't take hold.
Thank you for your sage advice and reassurance~
I haven’t tasted any off flavors previously and will work on doing an aeration/oxidation SO2 test tomorrow. It just hadn’t occurred to me as I thought I was in the right place. Another great reason to take notes. I can look back and see trends I may have missed at the time but which pop out now (splash racking introducing oxygen and pH being higher).
I’ll post results~ thank you again!
I haven’t tasted any off flavors previously and will work on doing an aeration/oxidation SO2 test tomorrow. It just hadn’t occurred to me as I thought I was in the right place. Another great reason to take notes. I can look back and see trends I may have missed at the time but which pop out now (splash racking introducing oxygen and pH being higher).
I’ll post results~ thank you again!
Aeration Oxidation SO2 test came out to 24ppm so I added the right dose according to pH of 3.7 (55ppm) and will check in a few days.
All three demijohns smell and taste good. One had some floating junk on the top and so I took a sample and looked through my microscope… spheroid to elliptical shapes. Could be acetobacter. Better SO2 level should help. I also sparged the headspace with nitrogen and cleaned the necks and bungs with SO2 solution.
All three demijohns smell and taste good. One had some floating junk on the top and so I took a sample and looked through my microscope… spheroid to elliptical shapes. Could be acetobacter. Better SO2 level should help. I also sparged the headspace with nitrogen and cleaned the necks and bungs with SO2 solution.
How much potassium metabisulphite did you add to the wine that measured 24 ppm via aeration-oxidation?
I’m starting at the dose it should have been, 1tsp. I’ll measure again to see where it is in a couple days. I imagine it might be a little lower than it should be, but a bunch closer. I didn’t want to overshoot with a double dose. I may have to add another, but then at least I’ll know with some definitive data.
@Hazelemere sorry… I wish this were all metric… I believe it’s 5G to get to 55mg/L for a 54L demijohn at 3.7 pH for the SO2 I’m using.
I'm asking about your entire addition of potassium metabisulphite from day 1 to when you measured it for what volume (any system US gallons, Imperial gallons or litres). Potassium metabisulphite in grams, tsp or parts of tsp is fine. I have an idea and whether it is right or not depends your answer wrt to sulphite dosage if you don't measure it for a red wine. Any free sulphite data measured via aeration-oxidation method can be very useful for all of the red winemakers on this website who don't use your method. If your data and my math works out I'll post an idea for everyone here. I don't want to tell you where I am going with this because I want to be totally unbiased by what you post. By the way, anytime you measure free sulphite by aeration-oxidation on any wine you make white grape, red grape or fruit please post it together with the entire inventory of potassium metabisulphite that you used. Trust me - this matters and you are a deep asset on this website just for measuring free sulphite the way that you do.
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