Bottling and degassing questions: campden and backsweetening

[oscillate_wildly]

Hi everyone, I am sure these topics has been covered in detail, but there is so much info out there, I appreciate your patience with me asking again. This is my first time making wine. I am bottling 6 gals apple wine that I started last October. 3 gals are from pressed apples, the other 3 are from store juice with some crushed apples added in primary. That batch with store juice is probably not great but I will still bottle if it tastes ok. I want a still, slightly sweet wine but I will taste first to see. My questions to you lovely people are:
- Can I bottle right after degassing (I will re-rack first)?
- Is it better to degas in smaller 1 gal batches where I can rack up to the neck of the bottle to reduce surface area, or can I do the whole 3 gal in a bucket even though there will be a larger surface area? I.e. is surface area and oxygen exposure not big a deal when degassing as long as I don't go nuts with the stirring?
- If I am backsweetening with a non-fermentable (monk fruit sweetener), do I still need to add Campden tabs before bottling? I added some at primary and that's it
- Can I backsweeten with sugar or honey if I add Campden tabs or will that re-start fermentation? I am assuming the taste of sugar or honey will be nicer than the monk fruit sweetener
- I am reading that if the wine has been through malolactic fermentation that I should NOT add campden tabs. How on earth do I know if that has happened?! It's been in secondary for about 6 months
Thanks!

 

[Ohio Bob]

You have some misinformation.

You can degas anytime you want. However it’s not necessary to degas if you bulk age the wine long enough. At EVERY racking, you should be adding your Campden tablets. 3 month intervals are typical for a racking schedule.

Back sweetening (with sugar or honey) can restart a fermentation if there are viable yeast still in the wine. Use sorbate in combination with Campden to ward off re-fermentation as well as protect the wine from oxidation and bacterial infection.

Potassium metabisulfite will kill the malolactic bacteria if the dosage is high enough. The issue with malolactic is if you add SORBATE to an ACTIVE MLF. A geranium flavor will result. So the MLF protocol is to let the MLF play out over time, or prevent it from starting with high dosages of Campden. There are test kits to determine if you have an active MLF or if it’s complete, I’ve never used them.

 

[oscillate_wildly]

You have some misinformation.

You can degas anytime you want. However it’s not necessary to degas if you bulk age the wine long enough. At EVERY racking, you should be adding your Campden tablets. 3 month intervals are typical for a racking schedule.

Back sweetening (with sugar or honey) can restart a fermentation if there are viable yeast still in the wine. Use sorbate in combination with Campden to ward off re-fermentation as well as protect the wine from oxidation and bacterial infection.

Potassium metabisulfite will kill the malolactic bacteria if the dosage is high enough. The issue with malolactic is if you add SORBATE to an ACTIVE MLF. A geranium flavor will result. So the MLF protocol is to let the MLF play out over time, or prevent it from starting with high dosages of Campden. There are test kits to determine if you have an active MLF or if it’s complete, I’ve never used them.

Thank you. How critical is 3-month racking? I haven't touched the wine for about 6 months and wanted to bottle it up now. There is very little sediment. I also made cider and I read a lot about using non-fermentable sugars to back-sweeten. I have monkfruit which I believe is erithrytol. I am not seeing this as much in the winemaking forums and info. Can you speak to why that is? I also have a follow-up question about the possibility of MLF if I did not intentionally start it. Many of the winemaking videos and info just state to add the Campden and Potassium Sorbate when bottling and don't mention MLF. Therefore I'm wondering how much I need to worry about it. Thanks again!

 

[Ohio Bob]

Thank you. How critical is 3-month racking? I haven't touched the wine for about 6 months and wanted to bottle it up now. There is very little sediment. I also made cider and I read a lot about using non-fermentable sugars to back-sweeten. I have monkfruit which I believe is erithrytol. I am not seeing this as much in the winemaking forums and info. Can you speak to why that is? I also have a follow-up question about the possibility of MLF if I did not intentionally start it. Many of the winemaking videos and info just state to add the Campden and Potassium Sorbate when bottling and don't mention MLF. Therefore I'm wondering how much I need to worry about it. Thanks again!

3 month is typical but some people extend that quite a bit. It’s a risk because the potassium metabisulfite exhausts it’s effectiveness as it binds with oxygen/contaminants.

I cannot speak to erithrytol, if it’s a synthetic sweetener I would avoid it. I trust natural ingredients.

If your wine has been aging at cooler temperatures, then it’s a possibility that MLF is in a suspended state. If it’s been stored at room temperature, then more than likely it’s completed MLF if it got started.

So adding sorbate depends on whether you want to back sweeten or not. If you decide to back sweeten then you need to add Kmeta and sorbate together. Since your not sure about MLF then I would not bottle just yet. Rack the wine, add 1/4 tsp Kmeta per 5g of wine, and let it sit for two weeks. This will PROBABLY kill any MLF bacteria. Then you can bottle in 2 weeks, adding just a splash more of Kmeta, sweetener, and sorbate.

If you’re NOT going to back sweeten, then you can rack, add Kmeta, and bottle.

 

[winemaker81]

How critical is 3-month racking?

It's not. In fact, periodic racking during bulk aging is often counter-productive, depending on the situation.

Let's differentiate between racking and adding K-meta. These are completely different actions, although often performed at the same time.

The "conventional wisdom" I was originally taught was to rack the wine every 3 months during bulk aging, adding K-meta. Many years later I questioned this, and developed the process where I rack a wine only if I'm actually accomplishing something. So my process generally follows this:

Rack/Press the wine after 1 to 2 weeks. Fermentation is complete or nearly so.

Rack 1 to 3 week later. The gross lees (fruit solids) supposedly drops within 24-72 hours of the end of fermentation, so all gross lees should be down.

Anything that drops after that is fine lees (yeast hulls) which causes no harm and may do good (research "sur lie" and "battonage").

I don't rack again until bottling time, which is typically 3 to 12 months later. I have 3 barrels of red that were filled last November and won't be emptied & bottled until this next November, when the new reds are ready for barrel.

During bulk aging I will withdraw a sample of wine, add K-meta and stir gently, then restore the withdrawn wine.

I also made cider and I read a lot about using non-fermentable sugars to back-sweeten.

Backsweeten and taste a sample before doing the entire batch. Many of the non-sugar sweeteners may not be to your liking in wine. Better to find out in a glass than in a carboy.

I also have a follow-up question about the possibility of MLF if I did not intentionally start it.

Malic acid is the predominant acid in apples. If your wine has the normal apple "tang" or "zip" to it, it hasn't under gone MLF. You can buy a malic acid test kit if you want.

If the wine has undergone MLF, the malic acid will be converted to milder lactic acid, and I'd expect apple wine to taste insipid or flat. If malolactic bacteria (MLB) is present in the wine, it will react with sorbate to produce a geranium aroma. You can counter-act this by treating with lysosyme first.

Prior to fermentation, treating the must with 60+ ppm K-meta should prevent MLF from occurring.

Can I bottle right after degassing (I will re-rack first)?

The short and totally useless answer is that you can bottle any time you want.

The longer and better answer is to wait until the wine has completed the early chemical changes, and all sediment has dropped. If you are not using fining agents, this will be in 4 to 12 months from the start, depending on the wine.

A lighter wine such as Apple can be bottled in the 4 to 6 month range. Since you started your wine last October, it should be ok to bottle -- IF it's clear.

 

[Rice_Guy]

What is your pH? (pH paper in the 3 to 4 range is useful or a pH meter) If your pH is 3.5 or above you are risking a wild lactic bacteria fermentation. If under 3.2 and you add meta you should be safe. Cider and wine are a preservative system.

Have you considered sweetening with frozen apple juice? It will increase your apple notes. Have you tried erythritol on a sample of your apple? My observation is most synthetics have unusual aftertastes. The cleanest artificial I know of is xylose. ,,, but is less effective per gram than actual sugar. ,,, I would assume you need K sorbate since your wine is young.

Welcome to WMT ,,, yippee another apple person!

 

[sour_grapes]

I wholeheartedly agree with Bryan's comments. Just chiming in to correct what could be a confusing typo to a newbie:

If the wine has undergone MLF, the malic acid will be converted to milder malic acid, and I'd expect apple wine to taste insipid or flat.

For the bolded "malic," I am pretty sure Bryan meant to say "milder lactic acid."

 

[winemaker81]

I wholeheartedly agree with Bryan's comments. Just chiming in to correct what could be a confusing typo to a newbie:



For the bolded "malic," I am pretty sure Bryan meant to say "milder lactic acid."

good catch! I fixed my post.

 

[oscillate_wildly]

It's not. In fact, periodic racking during bulk aging is often counter-productive, depending on the situation.

Let's differentiate between racking and adding K-meta. These are completely different actions, although often performed at the same time.

The "conventional wisdom" I was originally taught was to rack the wine every 3 months during bulk aging, adding K-meta. Many years later I questioned this, and developed the process where I rack a wine only if I'm actually accomplishing something. So my process generally follows this:

Rack/Press the wine after 1 to 2 weeks. Fermentation is complete or nearly so.

Rack 1 to 3 week later. The gross lees (fruit solids) supposedly drops within 24-72 hours of the end of fermentation, so all gross lees should be down.

Anything that drops after that is fine lees (yeast hulls) which causes no harm and may do good (research "sur lie" and "battonage").

I don't rack again until bottling time, which is typically 3 to 12 months later. I have 3 barrels of red that were filled last November and won't be emptied & bottled until this next November, when the new reds are ready for barrel.

During bulk aging I will withdraw a sample of wine, add K-meta and stir gently, then restore the withdrawn wine.


Backsweeten and taste a sample before doing the entire batch. Many of the non-sugar sweeteners may not be to your liking in wine. Better to find out in a glass than in a carboy.


Malic acid is the predominant acid in apples. If your wine has the normal apple "tang" or "zip" to it, it hasn't under gone MLF. You can buy a malic acid test kit if you want.

If the wine has undergone MLF, the malic acid will be converted to milder lactic acid, and I'd expect apple wine to taste insipid or flat. If malolactic bacteria (MLB) is present in the wine, it will react with sorbate to produce a geranium aroma. You can counter-act this by treating with lysosyme first.

Prior to fermentation, treating the must with 60+ ppm K-meta should prevent MLF from occurring.


The short and totally useless answer is that you can bottle any time you want.

The longer and better answer is to wait until the wine has completed the early chemical changes, and all sediment has dropped. If you are not using fining agents, this will be in 4 to 12 months from the start, depending on the wine.

A lighter wine such as Apple can be bottled in the 4 to 6 month range. Since you started your wine last October, it should be ok to bottle -- IF it's clear.

Thanks for all the info! I have run into some problems. I decided to bottle dry and add simple syrup after so people can choose their own sweetness. I have just bottled and I am having some problems with degassing. I racked and used the drill method to degas and nothing happened, so I thought that the wine has naturally degassed. Now I am seeing bubbles in the bottles. I turned one upside down, covering with my palm, and shook it and a ton of CO2 came out so my question is: can I degas the bottles this way or will the amount of air in the neck get integrated into the wine and spoil it? Sorry for the newb questions, this is my first wine

 

[oscillate_wildly]

Hi everyone, I posted this reply to a comment above but: I have run into some problems. I decided to bottle dry and add simple syrup after so people can choose their own sweetness. I have just bottled and I am having some problems with degassing. I racked and used the drill method to degas and nothing happened, so I thought that the wine has naturally degassed. Now I am seeing bubbles in the bottles. I turned one upside down, covering with my palm, and shook it and a ton of CO2 came out so my question is: can I degas the bottles this way or will the amount of air in the neck get integrated into the wine and spoil it? Sorry for the newb questions, this is my first wine

 

[winemaker81]

Hi everyone, I posted this reply to a comment above but: I have run into some problems. I decided to bottle dry and add simple syrup after so people can choose their own sweetness. I have just bottled and I am having some problems with degassing. I racked and used the drill method to degas and nothing happened, so I thought that the wine has naturally degassed. Now I am seeing bubbles in the bottles. I turned one upside down, covering with my palm, and shook it and a ton of CO2 came out so my question is: can I degas the bottles this way or will the amount of air in the neck get integrated into the wine and spoil it? Sorry for the newb questions, this is my first wine

Don't apologize for asking questions -- that's why we are here.

Since you started the wine in Oct 2023 (if I understand correctly), the wine should be naturally degassed by now. Based upon your description, I'm not sure if you have a problem (wine not degassed) or if you are seeing something normal and perceiving it as a problem. We'll figure it out.

The ullage (air between wine-n-cork) is not something to be concerned with.

What is the current SG? If you have a stuck fermentation, that will explain CO2.

 

[oscillate_wildly]

Don't apologize for asking questions -- that's why we are here.

Since you started the wine in Oct 2023 (if I understand correctly), the wine should be naturally degassed by now. Based upon your description, I'm not sure if you have a problem (wine not degassed) or if you are seeing something normal and perceiving it as a problem. We'll figure it out.

The ullage (air between wine-n-cork) is not something to be concerned with.

What is the current SG? If you have a stuck fermentation, that will explain CO2.

Thanks, I'm kinda panicking because I've put so much effort into this, plus everything is taking me 10x longer since I'm new, and I'm worried I'm going to mess it up. The SG was 0.994 and the wine was very clear, very little sediment. I added 2 campden tab per gallon as I racked, then bottled within an hour or two. They have been sitting for about 4 hrs with tissue over the tops to stop fruit flies etc. I made a video here: , it's not great but hopefully you can see. This is after doing this about 5 times for this bottle

 

[winemaker81]

The video is a great help. It appears you have a light spritz, which is unusual at this point, but (obviously) not impossible. You have 2 choices:

1) unbottle the wine and let it rest a week. Unbottling will probably drive off embedded CO2 so you'll be able to re-bottle.

2) Put corks in the bottles and leave them upright a few weeks. The spritz appears light enough that it probably won't push the corks out, but that is a risk. If corks start pushing, then you need to unbottle.

Don't stress over this. While it feels like a huge problem to you, this appears minor.

 

[oscillate_wildly]

The video is a great help. It appears you have a light spritz, which is unusual at this point, but (obviously) not impossible. You have 2 choices:

1) unbottle the wine and let it rest a week. Unbottling will probably drive off embedded CO2 so you'll be able to re-bottle.

2) Put corks in the bottles and leave them upright a few weeks. The spritz appears light enough that it probably won't push the corks out, but that is a risk. If corks start pushing, then you need to unbottle.

Don't stress over this. While it feels like a huge problem to you, this appears minor.

Thank you! I am worried about oxygenating it by pouring out and re-racking so I think I will cork them. There are only about 7 bottles because I used some swing top also, so it won't take too long to do the turning upside down and shaking thing. Should I do this or just bottle? Of course, we are going away next Friday for 10 days!

 

[JBP]

I have monkfruit which I believe is erithrytol

Just a quick and minor correction - While monk fruit is often mixed with erithrytol, they are not the same. I do like it (pure) for a lot of things, although I have no experience using it with wine and as others have noted, would proceed cautiously.

 

[winemaker81]

Thank you! I am worried about oxygenating it by pouring out and re-racking so I think I will cork them. There are only about 7 bottles because I used some swing top also, so it won't take too long to do the turning upside down and shaking thing. Should I do this or just bottle? Of course, we are going away next Friday for 10 days!

O2 is among the reasons we add K-meta. It is a danger to the wine, but it's not the danger it's often reputed to be. Unless you have a total vacuum system, you can't avoid O2, so just treat it with K-meta.

From the video, it appears your carbonation is just a spritz. My preference is zero carbonation, but sometimes things don't quite work out. You should be ok.

Let's face the fact that this is your first wine. It is unlikely to last long enough to be a problem. For most people, the first few batches go down the hatch far quicker than you'll expect.

 

[Rice_Guy]

An observation as a contest wine judge, there are many wines folks make which have some bubbles on the edge of the glass. ,,, About half of them. I never dock a clear wine with some bubbles that just cling to the glass.

, , , can I degas the bottles this way or will the amount of air in the neck get integrated into the wine and spoil it?

There are few wines which have active froth, like champagne. About 1 in 250. Sparkling wine should have some uniform bubble formation for a few minutes. If the label does not say “sparkling wine” I will dock points for not being labeled correctly.

Looking at the video I am not concerned with the level of gas. ,,, CO2 acts as a preservative reducing the risk of oxidized flavor. CO2 is a tool which many hard cider folks use to improve the taste of their 5 to 6% beverage. ,,, Don’t be so concerned about a normal level of gas!

As a healthy food a pH below 3.5 and 10% alcohol will prevent folks from getting food poisoning. You are in a good condition. All that is left is does the beverage taste good. If it tastes pleasing you have produced a winner!

 

[Jovimaple]

And welcome to WMT!

 

[Christopher Anderson]

Welcome to WMT. As you have read, there are those who have vast knowledge as they have eons of messing up before understanding. Hehe

 

[Charles DeVier]

I make apple wine from my orchard, Apples are ripe in September and October. I pick them, wash in a 5 gallon bucket, cut out bad spots and run through my crusher. They are then dumped in a 17 gallon foodgrade trash can; water and sugar added, and pectin enzyme, nutrient and 5 campdon tabs. Next day, yeast is added and the ferment usually takes 6-7 days. My barn is usually fairly hot in the afternoons (85 F) but I usually never turn on the A/C.
I'll rack on day 7-8 into 5 gallon plastic carboys. A second racking will be done during the winter (indoor temp down to 45 F). A third racking in the spring. Bottling probably mid summer (indoor temp +/- 75 F). I want every-thing emptied and cleaned before September when apples are ready again.
Nope. I do not de-gas. Time takes care of that. I also do not add sulfates, clays, additives or any othe chemicals. My wife is allergoic the sulfates. I am drinking some pear wine started Oct 13, 2022 as I type this. It is slightly too dry for me, so I add a squirt of liquid Stevia to my glass before filling. Very tasty.
I made this wine rack last winter; holds 80 bottles 1.5 liters.