Brettanomyces

[maureengo2]

We ground up our organic apples 2 weeks ago, let the juice sit in a pail for a few days with cheesecloth on top, poured it into a 6-gallon carboy and added yeast - had about 9 days of violent fermentation, and then finally did the first racking yesterday. There was a dark, moldy-looking area around the neck of the carboy and it smelled like rotten eggs.

Once we finished siphoning it into a new clean carboy we took a sample outside and it didn't smell like Brett anymore. But I'm worried. Is there a way to get rid of the Brett or is this batch ruined?

How do I prevent this from happening again? I was following a Jack Keller recipe and perhaps that's why he called for using pasteurized apple juice? We're using our own raw, certified organic, unpasteurized juice.

Advice?

 

[Rice_Guy]

. There was a dark, moldy-looking area around the neck of the carboy and it smelled like rotten eggs.

A rotten egg smell translates into H2S (hydrogen sulfide). Sometimes one can pull this off by racking. If you are unlucky and it stays there the treatment is Reduless (copper treated yeast) or treating with a few ppm copper sulfate. If you do not remove this it will turn into mercaptans (stinky sulfur compounds) which are fairly stable.

The number one cause for sulfur like odor is stress on the yeast. A few fixes could be 1) use a no hydrogen sulfide yeast, 2) add a yeast nutrient or better staggered yeast nutrition (I like Fermaid O, ,,, organic yeast nitrogen since it prevents growth spikes), 2) reduce the fermentation to 50F 10C which slows them down so they are more efficient.

Bret does not smell like rotten egg. Based on smell Bret is unlikely. I am doing apple now and a layer of fine peel pulp in typical. if you freeze thenpress you can make a juice

 

[maureengo2]

A rotten egg smell translates into H2S (hydrogen sulfide). Sometimes one can pull this off by racking. If you are unlucky and it stays there the treatment is Reduless (copper treated yeast) or treating with a few ppm copper sulfate. If you do not remove this it will turn into mercaptans (stinky sulfur compounds) which are fairly stable.

The number one cause for sulfur like odor is stress on the yeast. A few fixes could be 1) use a no hydrogen sulfide yeast, 2) add a yeast nutrient or better staggered yeast nutrition (I like Fermaid O, ,,, organic yeast nitrogen since it prevents growth spikes), 2) reduce the fermentation to 50F 10C which slows them down so they are more efficient.

Bret does not smell like rotten egg. Based on smell Bret is unlikely. I am doing apple now and a layer of fine peel pulp in typical. if you freeze thenpress you can make a juice

So if I do treat it then this batch is not necessarily lost? I’ll add yeast nutrient tomorrow.

 

[maureengo2]

A rotten egg smell translates into H2S (hydrogen sulfide). Sometimes one can pull this off by racking. If you are unlucky and it stays there the treatment is Reduless (copper treated yeast) or treating with a few ppm copper sulfate. If you do not remove this it will turn into mercaptans (stinky sulfur compounds) which are fairly stable.

The number one cause for sulfur like odor is stress on the yeast. A few fixes could be 1) use a no hydrogen sulfide yeast, 2) add a yeast nutrient or better staggered yeast nutrition (I like Fermaid O, ,,, organic yeast nitrogen since it prevents growth spikes), 2) reduce the fermentation to 50F 10C which slows them down so they are more efficient.

Bret does not smell like rotten egg. Based on smell Bret is unlikely. I am doing apple now and a layer of fine peel pulp in typical. if you freeze thenpress you can make a juice

What’s the benefit of freezing the apples first and then pressing them?

 

[Rice_Guy]

H2S and mercaptans are detectable down to 0.2 parts per trillion. Fruity aromas are detectable down to 1 part per million. ,,, The good stuff gets masked. You don’t want a cider that tastes like burnt fried chicken. reference Zochlien from Virginia Tech has good articles on sulfur like odor on the web. The AWRI has a YouTube called stinky sulfur. There are a number of posts here about fixing rotten egg. We can’t fix the low nutrient cause after the yeast have stopped growing and metabolizing sugar! Nutrient needed to be in the system before 1/3 sugar consumption.


Freezing apple for two plus days then pressing is clean. Yes the brown foam/ apple gunk can be removed but it takes a little extra work. If you have a grinder it works. A second point is that with my grinding I get about 60% juice yield. Freezing pushes that to 80%

 

[maureengo2]

H2S and mercaptans are detectable down to 0.2 parts per trillion. Fruity aromas are detectable down to 1 part per million. ,,, The good stuff gets masked. You don’t want a cider that tastes like burnt fried chicken. reference Zochlien from Virginia Tech has good articles on sulfur like odor on the web. The AWRI has a YouTube called stinky sulfur. There are a number of posts here about fixing rotten egg. We can’t fix the low nutrient cause after the yeast have stopped growing and metabolizing sugar! Nutrient needed to be in the system before 1/3 sugar consumption.


Freezing apple for two plus days then pressing is clean. Yes the brown foam/ apple gunk can be removed but it takes a little extra work. If you have a grinder it works. A second point is that with my grinding I get about 60% juice yield. Freezing pushes that to 80%

OK so I can’t fix by adding yeast nutrients now. I’ll go look for the fixing rotten egg smells. I just hope I haven’t lost this whole first batch and have to throw it away.

 

[sour_grapes]

I’ll go look for the fixing rotten egg smells.

Reduless should probably be the first tool you try.

 

[Greg Corey]

Just aerating a lot can often help the smell as well. Just do a violent racking that makes lots of bubbles (I have done this to great success) or else get one of the drill powered aerators at a brew shop. If that doesn't work, then I'd move to chemical means (as someone who prefers natural/organic/low chemical intervention). Also of note, even if I'm doing a ferment with native yeasts rather than commercial yeast, I'll still add a little fermaid O since my native yeasts seem to behave better with a little extra food. Raisins also seem to accomplish this task but Fermaid o is good and reliable and cheap enough.

 

[maureengo2]

Reduless should probably be the first tool you try.

I only hesitated because I realized after reading that it has copper in it. We opened the carboy (which we racked on Wednesday) yesterday (Friday). My husband and farmhand can't smell the rotten egg in it anymore, but I think I detect a slight back smell of it.

 

[maureengo2]

Just aerating a lot can often help the smell as well. Just do a violent racking that makes lots of bubbles (I have done this to great success) or else get one of the drill powered aerators at a brew shop. If that doesn't work, then I'd move to chemical means (as someone who prefers natural/organic/low chemical intervention). Also of note, even if I'm doing a ferment with native yeasts rather than commercial yeast, I'll still add a little fermaid O since my native yeasts seem to behave better with a little extra food. Raisins also seem to accomplish this task but Fermaid o is good and reliable and cheap enough.

Thank you for that advice. I like less chemicals, too.

 

[sour_grapes]

I only hesitated because I realized after reading that it has copper in it. We opened the carboy (which we racked on Wednesday) yesterday (Friday). My husband and farmhand can't smell the rotten egg in it anymore, but I think I detect a slight back smell of it.

Yeah, the point is that Reduless has a small, controlled dose of copper. The dose makes the poison.

 

[winemaker81]

I only hesitated because I realized after reading that it has copper in it. We opened the carboy (which we racked on Wednesday) yesterday (Friday). My husband and farmhand can't smell the rotten egg in it anymore, but I think I detect a slight back smell of it.

If you can smell it, it's still there. Women generally have a better sense of smell than men.

Last year I had an encounter with H2S, and my wife (non-winemaker) could smell it upstairs a day before I could smell it in the fermenter. She didn't know what is was, just that it was nasty -- she doesn't like the smell of fermentation in general, so she didn't realize it was a problem. I've since asked her to inform me immediately if she smells it again!

If you find that there's an off-taste, that's mercaptans. I successfully treated it with ascorbic acid. I used a lot less than I calculated I needed, and it took 6 months for the wine to recover, but it worked. Patience is the key.

 

[maureengo2]

If you can smell it, it's still there. Women generally have a better sense of smell than men.

Last year I had an encounter with H2S, and my wife (non-winemaker) could smell it upstairs a day before I could smell it in the fermenter. She didn't know what is was, just that it was nasty -- she doesn't like the smell of fermentation in general, so she didn't realize it was a problem. I've since asked her to inform me immediately if she smells it again!

If you find that there's an off-taste, that's mercaptans. I successfully treated it with ascorbic acid. I used a lot less than I calculated I needed, and it took 6 months for the wine to recover, but it worked. Patience is the key.

Thank you fort his information. Can you tell me how you treated it with ascorbic acid? I have that here and it seems less dangerous than copper to me.

 

[maureengo2]

Yeah, the point is that Reduless has a small, controlled dose of copper. The dose makes the poison.

Thank you, but does it come out of the wine afterwards or does it remain?

 

[winemaker81]

Thank you fort his information. Can you tell me how you treated it with ascorbic acid? I have that here and it seems less dangerous than copper to me.

We are talking about 2 different things, although your confusion is completely understandable.

H2S is treated initially with K-meta and vigorous stirring. The stirring drives off H2S gas -- do it in a ventilated area and run a fan, as it reeks! K-meta bonds to H2S, rendering it harmless.

If you catch it early, that handles it. If not, then a measured dose of copper, using a product such as Reduless, will address the H2S. If you follow the directions, it's perfectly safe to use. When I used it, I dosed with kieselsol & chitosan a couple days later to ensure the copper precipitated.

If you get mercaptans, which can happen if the H2S isn't caught early enough, you get a nasty flavor. THAT is what is treated with ascorbic acid.

My notes from a 2020 second run wine that developed H2S and required Reduless are here:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/2020-red-blend-second-run/
Last fall one batch of Tempranillo developed H2S, but I caught it really early -- hitting it with a double dose of K-meta and stirring the heck out of it. That one needed no further treatment.

In the distant past I helped a guy treat H2S by racking his wine over new (pre-1982 USA) pennies, which also solved the problem. However, I strongly recommend against this approach, as the copper dosage is not measured, and indeed, the wine can become poisoned. I have no idea how much is too much, but IMO it's not a good area to mess around. You already know this, but it bears repeating, as other folks will read this thread years from now.


EDIT: Although I like RC-212 yeast, I'm leaning away from using any high nutrient yeast that can develop H2S. This year I'm using all Renaissance strains, which do not produce H2S. The problem with Renaissance is that it's available in large quantities only. Last spring a bunch of us split 500 g of TR-313 (white wine) and Bravo (red wine), and I previously purchased Avante (red wine). It's possible that in the spring I will see about organizing another group buy. This last one worked well.

 

[wood1954]

All good advice , reduless does work, it also settles out so you can rack it off and need not worry about copper in your wine.

 

[Cap Puncher]

Thank you fort his information. Can you tell me how you treated it with ascorbic acid? I have that here and it seems less dangerous than copper to me.

Reduless is not dangerous at all. If you follow the instructions, minuscule amounts of copper may be left.

Also, on a slightly different note, you need copper intake. It is essential for enzymatic function in your body. Copper deficiency causes problems (especially in the era of Covid because high dose zinc can greatly reduce copper absorption in the gut). The amount allowed/recommended in wine is far below the recommended daily value even and well below the max daily intake. Reduless is the safest option( if you miss dose copper sulfate, that’s where you could possibly get toomuch).

Ascorbic acid can really make wine taste sour if you aren’t careful. When using ascorbic acid, it is usually to break up polymerizing mercaptans to make them more treatable by a copper source , like Reduless.

 

[maureengo2]

We are talking about 2 different things, although your confusion is completely understandable.

H2S is treated initially with K-meta and vigorous stirring. The stirring drives off H2S gas -- do it in a ventilated area and run a fan, as it reeks! K-meta bonds to H2S, rendering it harmless.

If you catch it early, that handles it. If not, then a measured dose of copper, using a product such as Reduless, will address the H2S. If you follow the directions, it's perfectly safe to use. When I used it, I dosed with kieselsol & chitosan a couple days later to ensure the copper precipitated.

If you get mercaptans, which can happen if the H2S isn't caught early enough, you get a nasty flavor. THAT is what is treated with ascorbic acid.

My notes from a 2020 second run wine that developed H2S and required Reduless are here:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/2020-red-blend-second-run/
Last fall one batch of Tempranillo developed H2S, but I caught it really early -- hitting it with a double dose of K-meta and stirring the heck out of it. That one needed no further treatment.

In the distant past I helped a guy treat H2S by racking his wine over new (pre-1982 USA) pennies, which also solved the problem. However, I strongly recommend against this approach, as the copper dosage is not measured, and indeed, the wine can become poisoned. I have no idea how much is too much, but IMO it's not a good area to mess around. You already know this, but it bears repeating, as other folks will read this thread years from now.


EDIT: Although I like RC-212 yeast, I'm leaning away from using any high nutrient yeast that can develop H2S. This year I'm using all Renaissance strains, which do not produce H2S. The problem with Renaissance is that it's available in large quantities only. Last spring a bunch of us split 500 g of TR-313 (white wine) and Bravo (red wine), and I previously purchased Avante (red wine). It's possible that in the spring I will see about organizing another group buy. This last one worked well.

Let me know if you do again and can use another participant in the buying.......

 

[winemaker81]

Let me know if you do again and can use another participant in the buying.......

I have plenty of Andante and Bravo left and will not order more of either. I'm almost totally out of TR-313, which is fine, as I don't make a lot of whites.

In the spring I'm considering Brio or Maestroso for reds, and Allegro or Vivace for whites. I'll post in the March time frame to gauge interest.

 

[VinesnBines]

Let me know if you do again and can use another participant in the buying.......

Where are you located? Your tag says Scarborough. Which Scarborough? Or rather where are you now? Mailing yeast may get tricky outside the US. I also have plenty of Andante. I ran out and had to order 500 grams. If anyone wants a share, let me know.