Brix SG Help!

[mainshipfred]

I been test my fermentation progress using the refractometer but this morning I wanted a little more accurate measurement so I checked the SG. I have a finish and 2 triple scale hydrometers and in the wine I tested out of 3 fermenters the SG averaged 1.005 on all of them. But, the refractometer reads 10-11 on all of them. I calibrated the refractometer with distilled water and it read 0 brix. using a conversion chart 1.005 SG should be 1.3 brix and 11 brix should be 1.044. The to confirm I tested another wine and got 1.032 sg which should be 8 bricks but the brix are measuring 14-15 and a brix of 14-15 should be a SG of 1.061.

I'm really confused and don't know which to believe. My gut tells me to use the SG since the 3 different instruments measure the same.

 

[Johnd]

I been test my fermentation progress using the refractometer but this morning I wanted a little more accurate measurement so I checked the SG. I have a finish and 2 triple scale hydrometers and in the wine I tested out of 3 fermenters the SG averaged 1.005 on all of them. But, the refractometer reads 10-11 on all of them. I calibrated the refractometer with distilled water and it read 0 brix. using a conversion chart 1.005 SG should be 1.3 brix and 11 brix should be 1.044. The to confirm I tested another wine and got 1.032 sg which should be 8 bricks but the brix are measuring 14-15 and a brix of 14-15 should be a SG of 1.061.

I'm really confused and don't know which to believe. My gut tells me to use the SG since the 3 different instruments measure the same.

Sg and BRIX are different ways to measure the same thing, conversion between the two is relatively simple in Fermcalc. The refractometer isn’t reliable in the presence of alcohol, you know this, even with the adjustments for alcohol, don’t trust the refractometer in the presence of alcohol. . Use the hydrometer, it’ll get you to the other side.

 

[mainshipfred]

The refractometer isn’t reliable in the presence of alcohol, don’t trust the conversion charts. Use the hydrometer, it’ll get you to the other side.

Oops, I forgot about that, thanks.

 

[Rice_Guy]

The refractometer does not measure the same thing as a hydrometer. It is measuring sugar, which you have been removing and replacing with alcohol.
Always use the hydrometer on finished goods. Expect the readings to vary by .002 from tool to tool (standard error) unless you buy the research grade calibrated units.

I been test my fermentation progress using the refractometer but this morning I wanted a little more accurate measurement so I checked the SG. I have a finish and 2 triple scale hydrometers and in the wine I tested out of 3 fermenters the SG averaged 1.005 on all of them. But, the refractometer reads 10-11 on all of them. . . and don't know which to believe. My gut tells me to use the SG since the 3 different instruments measure the same.

 

[mainshipfred]

The refractometer does not measure the same thing as a hydrometer. It is measuring sugar, which you have been removing and replacing with alcohol.
Always use the hydrometer on finished goods. Expect the readings to vary by .002 from tool to tool (standard error) unless you buy the research grade calibrated units.

My only excuse is I only had one cup of coffee this morning and not fully awake even though I've been up since 5.

 

[Johnd]

The refractometer does not measure the same thing as a hydrometer. It is measuring sugar, which you have been removing and replacing with alcohol.
Always use the hydrometer on finished goods. Expect the readings to vary by .002 from tool to tool (standard error) unless you buy the research grade calibrated units.

Not trying to nitpick, but my understanding of the hydrometer and the refractometer, when used to measure our wine must, is that neither measure sugar, but they both give indication of the levels of the same thing, sugar, but they do it in different ways.
The refractometer measures refraction, which is calibrated in the instrument to reveal sugar content based upon how the light is bent by the solution, and the amount of that refraction tells us the concentration of sugar in the solution, typically in BRIX.
The hydrometer measures a different characteristic of our wine must, the specific gravity, the fact that the more sugar that is in solution, the more buoyant the liquid is, and the higher the specific gravity. The higher the hydrometer floats, the greater the reading of sugar content. Hydrometer readings are typically given in specific gravity.
Both will tell you the sugar you have in your must prior to fermentation beginning, we definitely agree that the hydrometer is the go to instrument after fermentation.

 

[Rice_Guy]

very true, the standard methods has me calibrate the hydrometer with salt solutions.
The total soluble solids is indicated with the hydrometer and as you might expect a dry year with low moisture fruit should have a different calibration than a wet year and one calibrated on apple juice is not good for grape juice

Not trying to nitpick, but my understanding of the hydrometer and the refractometer, when used to measure our wine must, is that neither measure sugar,

 

[David Violante]

Hold the phone… will I need to use a different hydrometer for apple wine versus grape wine, or other fruits? Or can I use the same one but calibrate differently based on the substance I’m fermenting? Is there a table or calculation for such a thing?

 

[Johnd]

Hold the phone… will I need to use a different hydrometer for apple wine versus grape wine, or other fruits? Or can I use the same one but calibrate differently based on the substance I’m fermenting? Is there a table or calculation for such a thing?

No!! Your hydrometer, if made for wine, will work just fine in any wine you make!! @Rice_Guy was talking about calibrating hydrometers, probably at work in the food industry. Yours is already calibrated for what you’re doing, and the accuracy of readings between different fruit wines is well within your tolerances.

 

[David Violante]

Whew… LOL I could see adding some steps to the process based on the kind of year, type of fruit… thank you~

 

[balatonwine]

My only excuse is I only had one cup of coffee this morning and not fully awake even though I've been up since 5.

Personally, if I were is a completely different climate and geographical location, I would be growing coffee beans, not grapes. My "other go to" beverage....

 

[Rice_Guy]

the technical answer is that if one was chemically running reducing sugars (sucrose, glucose, …) there is a difference between what a lab analysis is and the liquid juice measured as specific gravity on a triple scale hydrometer, ,,,,percentage sugar in in a species will vary based on growing location, crop year, rainfall, shade, fertilizer, variety, etc. There is wider variation sugar between species (crops as grapes carrots and beans and kiwi and honey and wild varieties of crops) on what percent sugar is in that total soluble solids which a gravity reading is looking at. WE know this when we see a recipe that says add sugar or run a mead at higher gravity.

The practical answer is WHO CARES if the alcohol is off by 0.5% between species or by 0.1% within a domesticated crop.
specific gravity is fast, easy and an inexpensive way to get a good enough piece of process information that would take lab skills plus four hours to accurately get, ,,, and experience has us fudge anyway as with meads or expecting a lower reading once the ABV starts to collect.

will I need to use a different hydrometer for apple wine versus grape wine, or other fruits? Or can I use the same one but calibrate differently based on the substance I’m fermenting?

No!! Your hydrometer, if made for wine, will work just fine in any wine you make!! . Yours is already calibrated for what you’re doing, and the accuracy of readings between different fruit wines is well within your tolerances.

 

[Jim Welch]

I been test my fermentation progress using the refractometer but this morning I wanted a little more accurate measurement so I checked the SG. I have a finish and 2 triple scale hydrometers and in the wine I tested out of 3 fermenters the SG averaged 1.005 on all of them. But, the refractometer reads 10-11 on all of them. I calibrated the refractometer with distilled water and it read 0 brix. using a conversion chart 1.005 SG should be 1.3 brix and 11 brix should be 1.044. The to confirm I tested another wine and got 1.032 sg which should be 8 bricks but the brix are measuring 14-15 and a brix of 14-15 should be a SG of 1.061.

I'm really confused and don't know which to believe. My gut tells me to use the SG since the 3 different instruments measure the same.

I found a spreadsheet on the morewinemaking website that compensates for the presence of alcohol in must, I find it very useful to use to monitor fermentation progress where I just let several drops of must fall from my stirring/punch down paddle onto my refractometer every time I stir/punch down.
I do use my hydrometers near the end of fermentation and at racking to secondary. I have found this spreadsheet to be very accurate though the accuracy decreases somewhat towards the end of fermentation as the alcohol level increases but it is still accurate enough to monitor fermentation progress.
All one needs is a spreadsheet program like Excel or another, the spreadsheet is free to download.

 

[winemaker81]

I found a spreadsheet on the morewinemaking website that compensates for the presence of alcohol in must, I find it very useful to use to monitor fermentation progress where I just let several drops of must fall from my stirring/punch down paddle onto my refractometer every time I stir/punch down.

The workbook is attached to the description for a refractometer. It compensates for ABV and temperature, so without Jim's feedback, I'd still expect it to be fairly accurate.

I am considering buying a refractometer, going back-n-forth. It's certainly easier and faster than a hydrometer ... but when reading a hydrometer, I understand the readings without any translation required. During fermentation, the initial and final readings matter; in between I use the hydrometer as a barometer, e.g., roughly how far along is fermentation? My wavering is partially self-knowledge -- I suspect I'll use it a few times and then it will sit, unused, in a drawer.

When buying equipment, I ask myself if I'm really going to use it? [I have enough junk laying around for this to be a question I ask myself regularly! ]

 

[balatonwine]

The workbook is attached to the description for a refractometer. It compensates for ABV and temperature, so without Jim's feedback, I'd still expect it to be fairly accurate.

There is an online alcohol correction estimator below to give you an example of using data from a refractometer to monitor fermentation:

https://www.vinolab.hr/calculator/monitor-ferment-from-refractometer-readings-en28

 

[David Violante]

The workbook is attached to the description for a refractometer. It compensates for ABV and temperature, so without Jim's feedback, I'd still expect it to be fairly accurate.

I am considering buying a refractometer, going back-n-forth. It's certainly easier and faster than a hydrometer ... but when reading a hydrometer, I understand the readings without any translation required. During fermentation, the initial and final readings matter; in between I use the hydrometer as a barometer, e.g., roughly how far along is fermentation? My wavering is partially self-knowledge -- I suspect I'll use it a few times and then it will sit, unused, in a drawer.

When buying equipment, I ask myself if I'm really going to use it? [I have enough junk laying around for this to be a question I ask myself regularly! ]

Bryan,

I have both, partly because, well... toys... but I'm also growing grapes and so it's invaluable when out in the vineyard. It takes the guesswork out of how the grapes are doing. I used it once while fermenting but honestly using a hydrometer was just easier. The only exception is if you have a small ferment where the hydrometer doesn't fit in the container and you then have to clean and sanitize equipment to find out where your must is. But then you have to do the calculations so there's a trade off. I like mine, but I really only use it at the end of the growing season.