Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
Only thing I can think of is pH (though mine should be consistent with yours).
Broad Run Cellars 2016 Fall Crush
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Only thing I can think of is pH (though mine should be consistent with yours).
In an earlier thread you said both of our Zins were identical (3.68). I'll have to retest it now that everything is done. Not sure what your Spring numbers were on those stuck ones, but I believe if I remember correctly, they were fine. Have you tested for radon lately (assuming you had that tested as part of the inspection before buying the house)? I know that is a little far fetched, but I think you've thought of all the normal things.
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
Yep, tested before we bought. We have a walkout basement with 2 doors and 3 or 4 full size windows. And the 2015's were fine (except for the Cab, which had a low pH). Need to retest the pH on the Chileans once they are fully degassed.
Spring Pinot Noir is a pH of 3.32 right now, was 3.33 when fermentation started (after over adjusting from 3.69). Lanza Zin from this fall is a pH of 3.58, believe it started fermentation at 3.68, post fermentation/pre-MLF was 3.54 (yo-yo effect). Note that between the start of fermentation and this measurement I have a new pH meter, which acts much more stable (actually reads 4.01 or very close when I test in 4.01 solution both before and after testing the sample -- looking for repeat-ability).
A Milwaukee MW101, $92 shipped from Amazon. Had a Hanna pHep 5 before that (still have), but if I put too much pressure on the outside of the unit when I was holding it the readings would change dramatically. Only downfall is that I have to calibrate the MW101 using a turn screw(s) and adjust for temperature, but I'm normally in the 60*F to 80*F range, so it is a small amount and most times negligible (less than a few hundredths of a unit, which is close enough for me).
Someday I hope to get a pH/TA/SO2 unit and I"ll give my MW101 to my older brother or neighbor up the street since they don't have one, yet.
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Okay, might be reaching here, and at this point there may be no way to test it. In a post on another thread there was the discussion of SO2 levels and pH. In that article (pdf) there was this:
Different strains of yeast can produce anywhere from 10 ppm to 80 ppm during primary alcoholic fermentation. Most commercial strains for winemaking produce only 10 – 30 ppm, so they are generally preferred.
I researched the yeasts I know you used in the Spring (BM4x4, D254 and RP15 - don't know what you used for the Syrah). And two of them are moderate SO2 producers during fermentation (BM4x4 and RP15), but we would have to find out what is the moderate range. Historically Merlot can also be an issue on it's own when it comes to MLF.
So is it possible that if the buckets were over sulfited, you may have added sulfite to the whole grapes, and with the added sulfite the yeast produces during fermentation, coupled with certain pH's, could the SO2 be just high enough to make it tough on the MLB, even though I know you used VP41 eventually? (I think your pH's were Cab 3.27, Merlot 3.26, Syrah 3.53 and Carm 3.42).
I think the only way we could have ever known is if we checked the free SO2 level right before pitching the MLB. The common factor in this could be that a lot of us had issues this Spring, which could point to over sulfiting of the buckets, in general.
I know I'm grasping, but I haven't heard any other better ideas yet.
Edit: Interesting short article:
http://www.lallemandwine.com/wp-con...-Wine-Yeast-During-Alcoholic-Fermentation.pdf
Edit 2: an even more interesting booklet, just a little big size wise:
http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/ScottlabsHandbook2016.pdf
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Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
You could be onto something, Craig. Except for the Syrah. Both the Chilean in the spring, and this fall's Syrah were fermented with RP15. Certainly doesn't mean there weren't different SO2 levels in the musts to begin with though. The fall Syrah (at least visibly) is kicking right along with MLF.
I needed a couple little things and made an order from MoreWine today. I added a packet of CH35 to the order. Seems it is the go-to strain for 'difficult' conditions. I'll take a chromatography next week to see how things are moving. If it doesn't look like they are, I'll pitch the CH35 on the remaining 3 varietals (and maybe the two chileans that haven't yet been sulfited).
I needed a couple little things and made an order from MoreWine today. I added a packet of CH35 to the order. Seems it is the go-to strain for 'difficult' conditions. I'll take a chromatography next week to see how things are moving. If it doesn't look like they are, I'll pitch the CH35 on the remaining 3 varietals (and maybe the two chileans that haven't yet been sulfited).
This Fall's Syrah was all grapes right? Hence the lack of extra SO2 from the buckets in the Spring, which would make some sense. What I'm getting at is maybe those buckets had double the SO2 or even more? We don't know since we didn't crush/press and prep the final buckets.
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
Your buckets were fine though, right? And I would have to think that if SO2 levels were too high for CH16 and VP41, that alcoholic fermentation would have at least been challenging. No issues that I recall.
Yes, but I didn't add any Kmeta to my grapes when I brought them home because I hand crushed them and they looked great (I think, I'll have to reread the posts from last Spring). And I didn't get a successful MLF until July with CH35, maybe the levels from the buckets had dropped enough by then? Plus I used RC-212 with my PN batch, which is very conducive to MLF. My hypothesis is that the SO2 production (what isn't used in the Sulfite pathway in fermentation) from the yeast you used was enough to maintain the harsh environment that came with your buckets for the MLB. Plus if you added any Kmeta to the grapes and the pH was at all out of kilter, it might have been enough to inhibit a strong MLF.
I know, it's a stretch, but at least it has me reading and thinking, both of which are rare for me.
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
Gotcha. I'll have to go back and confirm that I added sulfite prior to pitching the yeast. Pretty sure I did. But geez, by now, that sulfite should be pretty much zero, no?
What you added might be, what about what was in the bucket to begin with? I was always under the impression that it all got used up, but I've never tested it before and after fermentation to see if it was all used, or what percentage was used. I think I need me a SO2 test kit.
Remember, this is all thinking out loud. What do people do when they want to act like the GM of a football team, they play fantasy football. What do I do when I pretend to be a real wine maker, I post on here and wait to be corrected!
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Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
Pitched CH35 MLB on 3 of the 4 Lanza wines this morning. Since I had enough for 60 gallons, I added some to the Chileans too.
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
I'm gonna have to redo this - put them too close together and too close to the left edge. But as you can see, the 4 on the right (the spring chileans) haven't done much MLF. The others on the left seem to be making a tiny bit of progress, despite a lack of visible bubbles in all but the Syrah. So I'm pleased with that. It's been just a week since I pitched CH-35 in all of them. I'm hoping that it might kick start the Chileans. I still haven't sulfited the Carmenere or the Merlot. The Carm has been showing some bubbles over the last 10 days.
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I've heard of a shotgun start for a golf tournament...that's pretty darn impressive!
Your Zin and PS seem to be moving a bit. Actually your Cab does too. I'm assuming you didn't do one before pitching to compare it to?
Your Zin and PS seem to be moving a bit. Actually your Cab does too. I'm assuming you didn't do one before pitching to compare it to?
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Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
The Viognier is at 0.992 so I racked this morning and added sulfite. It is wonderfully aromatic and is already tasting great. High hopes for this one! I've got some haze (likely from the dried pineapple and mango I added to primary), so I'm going to hit it with some pectic enzyme.
Also topped up the barrels and gave everything going through (or attempting to go through) MLF a stir.
On a non grape wine related note, I re-racked the 3 Country Cab and added the clarifiers. Still some H2S, but it is dissipating.
Also topped up the barrels and gave everything going through (or attempting to go through) MLF a stir.
On a non grape wine related note, I re-racked the 3 Country Cab and added the clarifiers. Still some H2S, but it is dissipating.
Boatboy24
No longer a newbie, but still clueless.
Well, things are progressing for the 4 CA wines (left side). For the Chileans, perhaps some movement on the Carmenere and Syrah, but little, if any, on the others.
