Building a wine by flavor-recommendations

[efBobby]

For a moment I’m ignoring the genetic complexities of making it happen. This is more of an exercise of opinion of what a nice whine would entail.

although I will add some constants to give a foundation on which to start and a loose type of end goal.

I am less than wildly experienced in the realm of wine and to be 100% honest I enjoy working with and creating things with grapes far more.

For me personally it’s more of a cognitive therapy but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be elated to create something I or others would enjoy drinking!

To start let’s go with a red;

I know even less about reds but I’m not to that level where I enjoy that astringent, just decided to chew on the wine glass ‘feel’.

What I think I know about reds:

-they tend to be more focused on aroma

-they tend to be more focused on color

-they tend to be more focused on physical texture

-for some reason they tend to like that tooth-filling dislodging astringency

-reds Can be very sweet



I prefer sweet wines and the only sweet red I know of is port.

-the color and aroma is great but not a deal breaker

-really all I care about is flavor and texture that gives a very slow finish when drinking.

-the base flavor is wild berry

-I’m thinking for reds the best way to go is with similar flavors.

Perhaps strawberry

Definitely blackberry

Grape

Are there any wines that have a plum flavor?

Would be a good candidate for spices I think

Maybe nuts?

I am not a culinary artist so no idea which ones.

Any other suggestions?




Next what I think I know about whites:

Idk if there are many things that sum up whites since they seem to be in so many styles but I’ll try:

-whites seem to favor complexity

-they seem to favor a crisp mouthfeel

-they seem to favor acidity over astringency

-they also favor aroma

-color but to a lesser extent

-finish seems to be much lighter and hence faster



Same preference so I guess the style will be dessert wine.

For the whites I care most about complexity flavor and that little acidic zing at the end.

Same base flavor but I think opposites do better here

Perhaps grapefruit

Lime perhaps?

Maybe cream to counterbalance?

Minerals I have no idea wtf entails a mineral flavor

Apricot?

Green apple I can see that

Herbs again no idea which ones

I’ll throw it out there grasses? Apparently it’s a thing not sure if it’s a good thing? Lol

Any other suggestions?


After all the suggestions perhaps a final product with 4 total tastes combined? Or is that low?

 

[Chuck E]

I would suggest you read the thread about "tweaking" kit wines. The guru of that thread is @joeswine . He goes into great detail about additions to cheap wine kits that can really make a difference. Many on that thread have tried adding citrus zests, dried fruits, spices, etc ....

By practicing your additions on cheap kits, you will be able to home in on what you really prefer, without spending a fortune. When you identify your favorite, then you can spend the money on a better kit (or grapes) for a better finished product.

 

[efBobby]

Oh,

I intend to use the info for breeding.

The base flavor of wild berries was obtained from a wild vine I found.

Cross 1 wild vine x Campbell’s early which has a grape flavor

Cross 2 will ideally be a 50/50 vinifera hybrid itself or a vinifera x a non vinifera

Then cross those together making an end product with a 75/25 non-vinifera to vinifera ratio.

Note: I do have to ensure all my selections are diploid since a tetraploid to diploid cross would not take.

I live in central Virginia’s piedmont region at a whole 400 feet with near London-like rainfall this year.

Makes choices limited if not non-existant. So the solution find a wild vine or vines that do make palatable grapes and build them up.

I lucked out initially since this vine’s grapes are well balanced even before the frost aka it’s the latest of the wild vines so the berries get much sweeter after the frost opening up some leeway.

And it does have some complexity aka wild berry is the closest general term i chose that is relatable but they basically taste like a combination of blueberries, blackberries and strawberries.

Aka even the more rare land races are generally not very complex.

I do this for fun so no pressure.

The wild vine is basically bulletproof so no spraying needed and the species vitis cinerea v floridana/vitis cinerea complexing is known for passing on its resistances.

The vine even has large, loose clusters. Only weakness are the berries themselves which are small hence the need for at least 1 cross.

I chose the table grape variety(it was suggested and I like it) bc it has large berries and is sweet making the sweet side.

The second cross will be the vinifera side with good tannins, silky texture and at least a couple more flavors.

For the red I want 3 or more fruit flavors that are similar with 1 non fruit flavor which should give that slow feel/long aftertaste.

The 75/25 ratio will hopefully steal the good parts from the vinifera without diluting the resistances.

 

[Rice_Guy]

It would be worth your while to take Winemakermagazine’s tasting course the next time they are out East. Possibly Cornell also has one that is open to the public.

* astringent is usually associated with stems/ seeds and a defect, I identify it as clean the tarter off your teeth, astringent lasts as long as a minute and is a slower flavor to be picked up
* reds are usually fermented hot which blows off fruity notes, there is no reason one couldn’t run a fruity red, red juice has lots of aroma.
* tannin is a variable that folks breed for. Tannin means a set of compounds which bind protein, ex your tastebuds and make them cross link and shrivel. It is a slower flavor and can last
* whites are run cooler to preserve fruity aroma, the skin doesn’t have the phenolic compounds so that set of flavor isn’t there
* acid is not as fast as sweet but significantly faster than astringent or tannic.

We in america need better varieties, Europe has more choices. Top of my list for breeding is disease resistance since much of the US has lots of rain/ humidity which forces heavy duty spraying to get any crop.
Keep at it and good luck!

 

[efBobby]

Agreed. at first I wanted all native varieties but now I seek balance of vinifera to native varieties since vinifera simply has traits that would take lifetimes to breed into native species.

Also good news is I just took some clusters and cuttings so the mother vine is very much in tact and can be pollenated easy enough.

But yes this country could greatly benefit from breeding to terraform new areas. Especially the south east. With plentiful rainfall and fertile soils; with hardy hybrids all one needs to do is plunk them in the ground.

Also there are hundreds of old American varieties so one doesn’t have to start cold.

Ps couple corrections

Campbell’s early is a big berried labrusca

For flavor description strike blackberry and replace with raspberry.

I’ve already buried some clusters but when I go back I’m going to get more now to press and later after the frost.

I plan on doing some vinifera breeding too.

I have observed 2 varieties in which I have created a new category for called ‘amplifiers’.

They seem to amplify the characteristics of what they have been crossed with.

Gouis Blanc

Chasselass dore’

I should be getting cuttings of the following varieties next year:

Cortese

Vermentino

Zalema

Gouis Blanc

Chasselass dore’

Loueiria

Garganega

Baco Blanc


One idea I wish to try is a redux of vidal blanc by replacing ugni blanc with its spiritual predecessor Baco Blanc as well as its parent vine Noah both to cross with rayon d or

 

[efBobby]

Another planned cross is a redux on one of the most ubiquitous grapes ever which is Chardonnay.

It stems from the combination of Pinot Noir and gouis Blanc

But perhaps a more purposeful cross may unlock new and/or improved flavor profiles by substituting Pinot Noir with Pinot Blanc? Or even Grigio?

All the while stockpiling vinifera, hybrids and native genetics.

The natives are still the most exciting to me bc once I suss out some good natives aka landraces or vines with desirable fruit quality they will be cloned and introduced into either their native areas or cloned and crossed to be introduced into uninhabited areas paving the way for future generations who seek to explore to find some real treasures.

So far things are going well the only places I’m running into barriers are Ca, az and fl.

Ironically the California grape species girdiana and Californica are among the highest threatened ones too since nurseries are unknowingly propagating vinifera hybrids as natives and therefore pushing out the real natives since the hybrids are self fertile.

So any Californians wanna help save their native grape species please pm me.

 

[Rice_Guy]

The vinters club did a zoom meet yesterday, one of the insights is that the new Plocher cross Verona has good tannin and makes a bold red juice.

 

[joeswine]

There's so many different ways to make wine I think you need to define better what type of profile you're looking for and streamline the type of wine you like you seem to have a multitude of questions for somebody who's new at this are you new with this?

 

[efBobby]

Yes I’m new but I guess my questions are more geared towards grape breeding which I have absorbed much knowledge and did some f1’s

Most specifically my culinary palate is not very diverse so I’m mainly getting advice on which flavors to pair with each other to create a good tasting wine. I have to cross bc my base has small berries.

Far as grapes I can use either blancs or reds bc red/purple is dominant but I can get blanc as well just have to wait until f2

 

[joeswine]

Your making things to complicated ,really.