Can you rack too much ?

[AkBillyBow]

I purchase the All in One Pump and use it for racking and degassing. Since it is so easy to use, I have also used it when adding an F-pack and then racked back and forth a few times for mixing purposes. I want to be sure I am degassing enough, but don't want to over due it. It isn't much more effort to rack back and forth 2 or 3 or even 4 times (when you have enough empty carboys).

Am I overdoing it? Is this going to cause any issues? I want to mix and degas enough, but don't want to over due it. Any opinions??

Thanks for the help,

AkBillyBow

 

[Putterrr]

I dont know if excess racking will hurt anything but I would think that a stirring spoon would be allot faster than racking just to mix things up.

cheers

 

[jgmann67]

I also have an AIO and since I bulk age (over 6-12 months), my wines are racked 4 to 6 times before bottling. It does a better job of removing co2 than stirring ever could with less exposure to o2.

I don't know that I'd do so many racking in the same day though. Time is your best friend in winemaking. Sediment drops out of the wine over time. By waiting between racking, I get to leave that stuff behind.

 

[GaDawg]

I dont know if excess racking will hurt anything but I would think that a stirring spoon would be allot faster than racking just to mix things up.

I would think that stirring will add more O2 than racking with an AIO pump.

 

[Stressbaby]

I'm not a physicist, but this is how I think about it.

On the side from which the wine is drawn, there is no vacuum. There is some air exposure just on the top of the wine, and that wine is turning over a little bit, but only for the duration of the racking process so it's probably minimal. This is probably the equivalent exposure of a gentle stir.

If you are "falling film" racking (shooting the wine against the carboy sidewall on the receiving side) there is potential exposure at that point. You have a vacuum so there is considerably less air and oxygen in the container that normal. @vacuumpumpman could probably tell us, but as a guess let's say 20%-ish. The exposure of the wine in the falling film is what degasses it. While it has CO2 to give up, that CO2 further displaces remaining air and O2 in the receiving carboy. So as long as there is CO2 to give up, even though there is this huge exposed surface area in the falling film, the oxygen exposure on the receiving side is really minimal as well.

Once the wine is degassed, there is no further benefit to using the falling film technique. Even though the Ai1 vacuum removes 80%-ish of the oxygen on the receiving carboy side, 20%-ish still remains, and at that point you are needlessly exposing the wine to that remaining oxygen. How much? Not much, but any could be too much, why risk it?

The greatest exposure to oxygen in my opinion is technique related and occurs right at the end. When you are falling film racking, the tip of the tube on the receiving carboy side is submerged. If you aren't careful when you get to the end, you draw air into the system from the first carboy. This vigorously bubbles 100% air (21% oxygen) through the wine on the receiving end. I believe lots of wine gets unwittingly oxidized in this manner.

(What you almost need is a three hole bung with two inlets, one for the angled tube which directs the falling film, and second very short one which drops the wine straight down. Then add a switch to use once the tip of the angled tube is "underwater" to switch off the input to the angled tube and start dropping the wine straight down into the carboy so as not to unwittingly bubble it at the end.)

Anyway, I've never racked more than once for mixing. If the wine is degassed, I think a gentle stir risks less exposure than the Ai1. I think 3-4 Ai1 rackings over time is enough to degas and any more than that increases risk of oxidation, somewhere between just a little and a lot depending on your technique.

 

[globalnavigator]

This thread reminds me of the movie "Bottle Shock". In the film, the Chardonnay turns brown for 24 hours after bottling, a twist that devastates Jim, who believes his new release is doomed. Though the wine did turn off-color for a short time after it was bottled, this is actually a somewhat common occurrence.

Here's loosely the scene about racking:


Dad: Hey. We're racking the wine again.


Son: Dad, you gotta be kidding me.
No one in the valley racks
more than three times.
We've racked the wine five times.


Dad: That chardonnay
has gotta be clear!


Son: Hell, we'll set
a world record then, huh?

 

[sour_grapes]

I largely agree with Stressbaby's thoughts.

However, I do think Stressbaby was being generous with his guess that the receiving carboy would be 80% evacuated. When you start drawing on the receiving carboy, obviously it is 0% evacuated (100% full of air). It takes time to evacuate a volume. The pumpdown curve is a falling exponential [ p(t) = p_initial Exp(-s*t/v), where s is the pumping speed, v is the volume, and t is time], so it gets harder and harder to evacuate as you go. Moreover, the racking procedure is not static -- you are evacuating the air from the carboy as wine is replacing it. Under these conditions, I would doubt the vacuum level gets near the pump's ultimate pressure. I think @NorCal has a gauge on his rig, and perhaps he or Steve could shed light on what vacuum levels are achieved during racking.

 

[Scooter68]

I agree with the concept of letting time do the work for me. Each fruit variety is different and even within a fruit variety there can be differences in how fast things will happen depending on everything from temps to amount of pulp in the batch.

As far as the original question - It's hard for things to settle out if you keep racking, and regardless of the racking method or equipment, racking does expose your wine to more oxygen than just letting it sit and settle. Racking a couple of times in the first 2-4 weeks I can understand as that's when you have the most lees to remove. BUT once the gross lees are removed time will do you more good than anything else with less effort regardless of your racking method/equipment.

"Time is Your Friend" the hardest thing to learn and some of us struggle more than others, but: learning that will put you way ahead of the newbies rushing to serve their first wine. I know that by experience - Serving a 4-5 month old wine to friends and then, 7-8 months later drinking a bottle from same batch - I had to check the label to be sure it was the same stuff.

Racking is a tool but over-using any tool is not good for your wine and wastes your time.

 

[AkBillyBow]

I dont know if excess racking will hurt anything but I would think that a stirring spoon would be allot faster than racking just to mix things up.

cheers

I was hoping to mix and degas all at the same time.....at least that is what I was trying to accomplish.

 

[AkBillyBow]

Thanks for all of the replies!!! I am still learning all of this stuff.

 

[Scooter68]

While racking and stirring can aid in de-gassing a wine, time is the easiest way. Bulk aging for an appropriate time will do the same thing for you without any work on your part. Bulk age for at least 10 months and there should be zero gas left except that introduced from K-Meta treatment.

 

[GaDawg]

Has anyone had wine go bad due to oxidation because of racking?

 

[Scooter68]

The first sign of oxidation is a color change. So if you mean a color change due to oxidation - yes. Brown wine isn't appealing. White Zin that looks and tastes like Plum wine.

 

[JohnT]

Racking 3 or 4 times is pretty common. If your SO2 levels and PH levels are "up to snuff", then you should not have anything to worry about.

Like others have said, let time do its work and rack only when you have a layer of sediment to remove (of if you have reason, like transferring in/out a barrel or removing oak additives).

Having a wine with a good tannic structure also helps.

I usually rack 3 or 4 times, but have racked as many as 6 times, and no, I have never oxidized a wine simply because I racked too much

 

[GaDawg]

The first sign of oxidation is a color change. So if you mean a color change due to oxidation - yes. Brown wine isn't appealing. White Zin that looks and tastes like Plum wine.

How many times did you rack your White Zin before oxidation occurred and did you use sulfides?

 

[JohnT]

The first sign of oxidation is a color change. So if you mean a color change due to oxidation - yes. Brown wine isn't appealing. White Zin that looks and tastes like Plum wine.

It is most likely that the wine had too high of a PH and not enough SO2 (k-meta).

Did you measure the acid levels? Also, like @GaDawg asked, did you add any k-meta?

 

[Scooter68]

It was actually a commercial wine that sat for 3-4 years looked brown in the glass and tasted like a plum wine. My original point was that oxidation does happen and even in a bottle.... stuff happens.

 

[GaDawg]

It was actually a commercial wine that sat for 3-4 years looked brown in the glass and tasted like a plum wine. My original point was that oxidation does happen and even in a bottle.... stuff happens.

Absolutely oxidation does occur. I was just curious if anyone had any personal experience of oxidation occurring due to racking.

 

[NorCal]

I've been called heavy handed and for Reds I will rack 3-5 times during the wine's 12 month life cycle. 1 Press settling, Optional 1 after 4-6 weeks if the fruit wasn't good, 1 MLF complete, 1 around March (most of the time), 1 before bottling. The barrels and Flex tanks I'll pump, the carboys I'll vacuum rack. I can't say I've ever noticed any hint of oxidation. Whites I'll rack 4 times under vacuum (this year I'll rack my 25 gallons of Chard 5 times due some ugly fruit) 1 at juice settling, 1 after fermentation, 1 after MLF, 1 at bottling. Have not seen oxidation on the whites either.