Cannot drink store wine

[Calamity Cellars]

Time to dial it back a bit. If you want to educate, feel free. If you want to start name calling, you are stepping over the line.

You are entitled to your opinion. I am curious as to your MEDICAL qualifications to make such broad statements. As for 'google it', that suggests if it is on the internet, it has to be true. Are you a French model?

People react differently to many items. Just because you and your colleagues use less sulfites does not mean other wineries follow that program.

Please point out where I called someone a name. I said they made an uniformed statement but did not call any one a name.

Interesting that multiple people can diagnose the op's problem as a sulfite reaction and implicate commercial wines as having higher sulfite levels with no medical knowledge or facts and no one tells them to dial it down.

My 'anecdotal' information on how commercial wineries make their wines is probably going to me more accurate since I am a commercial winemaker and I actually know them and how they make wine.

 

[manvsvine]

Alan is pretty right on track ,
There is a lot more internet noise about sulfites than there is good science .
Sulfites are an issue with 10% of asthmatics and the occupationaly sensitized .
Beyond that it's less than .0001 percent of the population who are naturally sensitive .
The cdc has studied this extensively and the FDA rates sulfites as GRAS .
Dried apricots and hotel salad bars have 30 times the sulfite that a 4.2 ph commercial wine is allowed to have.

The ethanol in wine is the most toxic ingredient by a long shot.

Alan's been a long time poster on several Internet forums and one of the few professional winemakers who help us homies , I've read his posts for years , never seen him post a single innacurate one .

 

[dking193]

I was driving back from beach today and missed several post. Got exciting in here for a bit. I decided to do some testing tonight that forced me to open and drink several wines, hence the late post.

What I concluded in my testing of SO2 in commercial wines backs Calamity to a large degree when it comes to sulfites in commercial wines. I tested 3 tonight. low $10, med $17, and higher $31 bottles of wine I had in stock. a. 24ppm Cab, b. 21ppm Melbac and c. 26ppm Pinot Nior. I was very surprised they were this low. I used the Vinmetrica SC-300 for the testing.

This is a very small sampling and only reds, but I found it interesting. May require more testing (drinking) tomorrow night to see PH and TA levels.

 

[seth8530]

I believe that Calamity Cellars, could have delivered his message in a more constructive manner, but I can understand why he is upset. He puts a lot of care and craftsmanship into his work, and it can be really upsetting when people just make broad assumptions about what the commercial sector does ( which he is a member of).

Ie, I would be extremely upset if people started bashing nuclear engineers without first consulting a physic book or journal to provide relevant facts.

Second,these kind of misconceptions about sulfites are not excusable for a wineforum. We are supposed to be the guys who are in the know, not the ones without a clue of what we are talking about. Sulfites do not cause hangovers, headaches, acid reflux.. ect. BTW, the Google search I made took less than 35 seconds.

And, before someone says that came from the internet, and decides that makes it worthless I would like you to also consider all the other valuable information that also resides on the internet.

http://www.winespectator.com/drvinny/show/id/5517


http://guides.wsj.com/wine/wine-tips-and-tricks/why-do-i-get-headaches-from-wine/

 

[grapeman]

I can understand and share Calamity's frustrations. As I do direct marketing with the public through farmers markets I meet hundreds of people every day tasting my wines. There is no larger single subject brought up by the public than so and so not being able to drink wine because there is a sulfite sensitivity. I deal with cold climate grapes which in general are higher in acid therefore in general needing less sulfite for protection. I still need to reassure the public about the safety of drinking wine in spite of the "Contains Sulfites" requirement on the label. It really does get to a person needing to spend so much time trying to educate them about this.

 

[JohnT]

Calamity is a man that really knows his stuff. As a professional (calamity), I can understand how he may feel frustrated at times. His fault is that he tends to forget who the members of this forum are made up of.

Calamity, your advice and contributions have been very valuable, but 99.99% of the members here are in it for the sake of enjoyment. When you go off like that, it sucks the fun out of it. I point out that you should be the bigger man given your experience level and education. Please have patience with those not as fortunate as you. keep calm, and kindly correct that with which you disagree with.

 

[Gwand]

Actually I thought it was a good post. Too often we react to anecdotes, then those stories are repeated, then they become legend, then "truth." How many times have you heard of someone getting sick from a flu shot? Same thing. Nobody gets sick from a flu shot. Period. There is no living, viable infectious agent in a flu shot. And there is no need for a medical degree to know this information.
And before anyone asks for my medical qualifications, I'm a doctor.

Stress baby, Never say never in medicine. That's my experience after 31 years as an academic physician.

Am J Med. 1990 Jan;88(1):27-30.
Frequency of adverse reactions after influenza vaccination.
Margolis KL1, Poland GA, Nichol KL, MacPherson DS, Meyer JD, Korn JE, Lofgren RP.

Abstract
PURPOSE:
Although concern about side effects constitutes a major deterrent to patient compliance with recommendations for influenza vaccination, there is a paucity of data about the frequency of adverse reactions to newer trivalent vaccines. Our aim was to determine the frequency of adverse reactions to influenza vaccine in older, chronically ill persons, many of whom are at high risk for influenza-related morbidity.
PATIENTS AND METHODS:
We conducted a telephone survey of 40% of the patients who were vaccinated at a walk-in flu shot clinic. The subjects were randomly assigned to two groups. To determine postvaccine symptom rates, Group I was interviewed seven days after vaccination. Group II was interviewed 21 days after vaccination in order to control for baseline symptom rates. Both groups were queried about fever, disability, and flu-like illness in the week preceding the interview.
RESULTS:
Of 816 patients selected, 650 (79.6%) completed the interview. The mean age of the subjects was 63, and more than two thirds were at risk for influenza-related morbidity. The frequencies of self-reported fever (5.3% versus 5.1%, p = 0.91) and disability (10.4% versus 9.3%, p = 0.65) were similar in the two groups. However, a significantly higher proportion of Group I subjects reported a flu-like illness compared to the Group II subjects (14.2% versus 8.7%, p = 0.03). Although Group I subjects were more likely to report flu-like illness within two days of vaccination compared to a similar time interval for Group II subjects, there was no corresponding clustering of disability after vaccination.
CONCLUSION:
We conclude that the overall frequency of symptoms in both groups was low; however, the absolute risk of a flu-like illness was 5.5% higher during the first week following influenza vaccination when compared with the third week after the injection. These symptoms did not result in a decreased ability to perform usual daily activities.

 

[Geronimo]

I have a couple of thoughts on the matter:
1. Perhaps commercial wines have a higher alcohol content that may worsen the reflux. Conversely, higher sugar content liquids are proven to worsen reflux.
2. It's possible that higher sulphite, or some other chemical concentration in commercial wines may also worsen the symptoms.

Alcohol content, pH and juice quality are all nearly identical between commercial wines and homemade wine from kits.

Telling people that it's all in their heads? That all commercial wines are better in every way, so the person experiencing the issue must be wrong? Interesting...

 

[Stressbaby]

Actually I thought it was a good post. Too often we react to anecdotes, then those stories are repeated, then they become legend, then "truth." How many times have you heard of someone getting sick from a flu shot? Same thing. Nobody gets sick from a flu shot. Period. There is no living, viable infectious agent in a flu shot. And there is no need for a medical degree to know this information.
And before anyone asks for my medical qualifications, I'm a doctor.

Stress baby, Never say never in medicine. That's my experience after 31 years as an academic physician.

Am J Med. 1990 Jan;88(1):27-30.
Frequency of adverse reactions after influenza vaccination.
Margolis KL1, Poland GA, Nichol KL, MacPherson DS, Meyer JD, Korn JE, Lofgren RP.

Abstract
PURPOSE:
Although concern about side effects constitutes a major deterrent to patient compliance with recommendations for influenza vaccination, there is a paucity of data about the frequency of adverse reactions to newer trivalent vaccines. Our aim was to determine the frequency of adverse reactions to influenza vaccine in older, chronically ill persons, many of whom are at high risk for influenza-related morbidity.
PATIENTS AND METHODS:
We conducted a telephone survey of 40% of the patients who were vaccinated at a walk-in flu shot clinic. The subjects were randomly assigned to two groups. To determine postvaccine symptom rates, Group I was interviewed seven days after vaccination. Group II was interviewed 21 days after vaccination in order to control for baseline symptom rates. Both groups were queried about fever, disability, and flu-like illness in the week preceding the interview.
RESULTS:
Of 816 patients selected, 650 (79.6%) completed the interview. The mean age of the subjects was 63, and more than two thirds were at risk for influenza-related morbidity. The frequencies of self-reported fever (5.3% versus 5.1%, p = 0.91) and disability (10.4% versus 9.3%, p = 0.65) were similar in the two groups. However, a significantly higher proportion of Group I subjects reported a flu-like illness compared to the Group II subjects (14.2% versus 8.7%, p = 0.03). Although Group I subjects were more likely to report flu-like illness within two days of vaccination compared to a similar time interval for Group II subjects, there was no corresponding clustering of disability after vaccination.
CONCLUSION:
We conclude that the overall frequency of symptoms in both groups was low; however, the absolute risk of a flu-like illness was 5.5% higher during the first week following influenza vaccination when compared with the third week after the injection. These symptoms did not result in a decreased ability to perform usual daily activities.

Gary,
As an academician, I'm sure you know this, but for the benefit of the other readers, I have to point out that you've sited a 24 year old study using telephone interviews, highly prone to recall bias and association bias. Bias aside, a study such as this hardly establishes causation. One obvious alternative explanation is that merely visiting a walk-in clinic increases risk of a flu-like illness...hardly unexpected given that people with flu-like illnesses often go to walk-in clinics for treatment.
Robert

 

[Stressbaby]

PS: Sorry for the threadjacking.

The point is this: sulfites are to winemakers what flu shots are to primary care physicians.

 

[Runningwolf]

Being a commercial winemaker along with Grapeman and Calamity I can tell you that we strive to put the right recommended dose of sulphites in the wine based off the ph. There is nothing worse then smelling a wine for its aroma and picking up S02. To generalize all commercial wineries like you would all home winemakers is so wrong. Just go to a wine trail event sometime and taste the different wine from different wineries. Some make a lot of bad wine and some make all good wine.

 

[ibglowin]

Was it only 5 years ago a younger man who also happens to go by the name "Calamity Cellars" on another winemaking forum was panicked and didn't know what to do with his Cabernet Sauvignon with a pH of 3.9….

A little kindness goes along way and is always appreciated.

Calamity is a man that really knows his stuff. As a professional (calamity), I can understand how he may feel frustrated at times. His fault is that he tends to forget who the members of this forum are made up of.

Calamity, your advice and contributions have been very valuable, but 99.99% of the members here are in it for the sake of enjoyment. When you go off like that, it sucks the fun out of it. I point out that you should be the bigger man given your experience level and education. Please have patience with those not as fortunate as you. keep calm, and kindly correct that with which you disagree with.

 

[Rocky]

Okay then, let's approach this from another direction. Let's not discuss what it is not, let's discuss what it is. If it is not sulfites, then what is it? There has to be something in commercial wines that causes issues and discomfort with people and don't tell me it is psychosomatic. I know what a burning the length of my esophagus feels like. I don't think it was the ethanol because at the same time I could and would drink Wild Turkey bourbon (50.5% ABV) either neat or with rocks and have no effect. Nor was it 'cellar palate' because at the time, I was not making wine and I had not made wine for more than 15 years. Are there other additives that we have not mentioned? Lastly, why would a wine maker in Italy say that they increase the sulfite level for exported wines to protect them in storage? That does not seem to be information that would increase sales of his wine.

 

[Runningwolf]

Rocky, in transporting wine internationally it does get beat up some and also goes though different ambient temperatures. I often sell bulk wine to wineries in the tri state area and always up the sulphites in that wine to protect it. The free S02 which protects the wine becomes bound. At the same time I record how much I am adding so even the bound S02 stays in check. You have to know approximately how much you're going to lose for the task at hand whether it is just racking or filtering and bottling at the same time. If you have less than 20ppm in you wine and lose 30% during filtering and bottling, that's not leaving most wines with a lot of protection. Next time you bottle, check your S02 before bottling and than check a bottle the next day to see your loss.

 

[JMK]

Could it be possible that the culprit be compounds being leached from oak barrels? I would guess that the majority of home winemakers only use glass carboys to bulk age versus oak barrels. Do you feel the effects after drinking commercial wine made in stainless steel?

 

[seth8530]

I have read studies that link wine headaches to tannins, something high quality reds have a lot of. Also, important to.consider is what you eat with your.commercial wine. Could be that in honor of buying the commercial wine you are eating something that causes acid reflux or a bad stomach.

 

[Geronimo]

I have read studies that link wine headaches to tannins, something high quality reds have a lot of. Also, important to.consider is what you eat with your.commercial wine. Could be that in honor of buying the commercial wine you are eating something that causes acid reflux or a bad stomach.

Tannins?

A) I have made many high tannin reds and no one has ever complained of a reaction.

B) I hear about headaches in regard to whites more than reds, and whites rarely have much in the way of tannins.

To generalize all commercial wineries like you would all home winemakers is so wrong.

Can we please try to have a little respect for the OP? He says he's tried commercial wines (many of them) and has mysterious reactions that cause acid reflux. He didn't say it was sulfites and he didn't say anything about headaches.

Wine is very acidic. All of it. Kit wine, store bought wine... you name it.

I chimed in that I have a similar mysterious reaction to nitrates, and got scolded for not talking about sulfites.

I'm just going to unsubscribe from this thread... and hope this isn't an indicator of where this forum is going.

 

[GaDawg]

Hay folks if you drink enough wine, homemade or otherwise you are going to have a headache. It's called a hangover


Sent from my iPad using Wine Making

 

[Calamity Cellars]

I will admit I might have been a bit aggressive in my initial response but I am absolutely disgusted with the ever pervasive ignorant sulfite statements that I constantly hear in every venue that wine is discussed.

I find it amusing that some one used my concerns about a high pH wine that I was making four years ago as some sort of response to my post. Never once in that phase of my wine making did I spread falsehood or misinformation. I may have been short on knowledge but I did not spout out misinformation...big difference. I do my research before I say something publicly. If my opinions are conjecture then I say so. I have an idea of what caused the op's issue but I do not have facts so I have not included those thoughts here.

As a long term result I'll bet no one that reads this thread will ever blame acid reflux on sulfites so I guess my mission is accomplished.

 

[JohnT]

moderators....

i think it is time that thread be deleted.
this is getting way too heated and feelings are starting to get hurt.