Cellar construction advice needed - vapor barriers

[jeffn]

I have a project that is in the early construction phase and need some advice. Here's the setup:

1) the wine cellar will be a separate building from my house, the footprint will be approximately 15x9 with a finish interior height of 8'.
2) concrete slab on grade construction
3) 6" cinder block walls, poured concrete filled, finished with stone veneer (Montana stone, Bitterroot Valley) on the exterior and interior faces... going for a stone building feeling.
4) the building is dug into the side of a hill so the backside wall will be approximately 5' below ground, tapering to the front.
5) roof will be timber framed and on top of the timbers will be sheathing, rigid insulation layer, a suitable vapor barrier and Liveroof 6" living roof modules.
6) for the climate unit I am thinking of a Winemate SSH external ducted unit, suitably sized for the volume of the space, that will install in a utility shed close to the cellar building.
7) lastly, no windows but I will have a glass entry door with appropriate sealing and a sliding barn door on the exterior to finish the building period specific. So you will slide open the barn door and walk in through the glass door.

My question is, for such a construction method how should I be looking at vapor barriers? My climate is temperate, SF Bay Area, and as such we don't have humidity to deal with but I am not clear from reading up on it how I should be looking at the moisture wicking properties of stone and concrete. Also, if I introduce a vapor barrier on either side I will have bonding issues to remediate for the installation of the stone veneer.

Thanks in advance, this is my first post to this forum.

 

[jamesngalveston]

very simple..dont
if your going to all that expense, then do it right....
buy a walk in cooler, frame around it with 2 x 4 construction.
walk in coolers come knocked down and they have a hinged construction with insulation that can not be beat..hands down.

 

[Runningwolf]

Jeff I am not qualified to give you the expert advice but could you please post pictures through out your journey?

 

[MrKevin]

Jeff
My two cents.

Build 2x4 interior walls with a vapor barrier, insulate, cover with plywood and apply veneer over plywood.
The problem I see is what ever cooling unit you use it is going to have a real hard time cooling a concrete wall in the summer (concrete will act like a heat sink) . If you build it as described it may have a constant temp just not the 55-58 deg. you looking for.
Kevin

 

[MrKevin]

Sorry posting problem

 

[jamesngalveston]

walk in coolers come in panesl that lock together, usually about 8 inches thick with a poly foam insulation...they are meant and build to hold cold at what every temp you want...one man can set one up in a few hours.
they come in a huge assortment of sizes.
I purchased a used one this year thats 10 x 12 x 8 i paid 3500 for it, and it has a refer unit that works excellent. i can freeze in it, are can maintain a constant temp from below freezing to about 75 degrees.
If i wanted too, i could frame it with 2 x 4s and sheet it for about 500 bucks.
they all come with build in 8 inch insulated floors.

 

[jeffn]

thanks.

I can't utilize wood framing because of the site location, which abuts fence on 2 sides. Therefore, I can't get access for sheathing and waterproofing unless I go with block construction, which simply requires me to add external vapor barrier and drain rock while constructing.

I contacted a company called PermaTherm about sized insulated panels the are connected together with a T&G joint. It also occurred to me that a waterproofing product for showers called Kerdi-Board might be a good choice for this application, it is a closed cell waterproof board that is designed as a substrate for stone and tile installations.
http://www.schluterkerdiboard.com/kerdi-board.aspx

Kerdi-Board may have some insulating qualities given the nature of the material, will investigate further. I could end up using insulated panels and screwing Kerdi-Board to the panels, in which case I would burn less than 3" of internal footprint on each wall.

 

[jeffn]

btw, if the objective is to disrupt heat transfer through the concrete (in this case, the cold air leaving the structure in a race to ambient equilibrium), then I can also use an insulating later on the exterior of the block building where I have access to the exterior, rather than using the interior space. Correct?

 

[jamesngalveston]

what do u think the cost of all this is are will be...it makes no sense to me.
heres a link for with the correct way to insulate block walls...

http://www.prosalesmagazine.com/energy-efficiency/blocking-and-tackling.aspx

 

[jeffn]

Listen, I just can't do this project the way you would like me to do it. There are site issues that are insurmountable, not just the fence line issue but also egress as a result of some landscape structures. I can't buy a refrigerated box and build something around it.

This doesn't have to be difficult and I am well versed on block wall construction techniques for residential construction. I understand how to build it to keep water out, warm air in and the humidity low but this is obviously different, it is a purpose specific building and the only residents will be about 1,500 bottles that have the opposite desires of people in a building. I understand the objective is to keep the cold air in and creates conditions that are conducive maintaining humidity in a cool environment.

There are a lot of ways to build this and whether or not it makes sense to you is secondary to if it will work properly. That is the goal and if it costs more to get 1) a structure that performs, and 2) achieve the level of aesthetic appeal that is consistent with our other structures then so be it. If you can help, I appreciate it - sincerely - but if your objective is to tell me all the reasons why you don't like the approach then I'm not interested. I have a problem and I came to this community to find a solution, not intellectually joust about the merits of socks vs knee high socks (it's a metaphor).

I can guarantee you one thing, I will end up with a wine storage structure that performs really well and looks frickin awesome. I always hit those marks.

 

[jamesngalveston]

i send you a link to block wall insulated structure wall...I was a structural engineer for 30 years...I have built every type of block wall that could be constructed...you have answered your own questions several times.
I do not mean to be critical at all.
If you want insulated concrete walls, build the walls cap it, drill some holes and core foam it...nothing else will be needed ..it is done.
The R value will be about 50.
If you want to water proof it, spray it with concrete waterproof coating.

 

[JEmesPA]

When I used to build homes they made foam insulating chunks that you could fill the block cores with. Also used foam sheathing the exterior of block wall.

 

[whackfol]

I have a poured in place under grade wine cellar. I paid to have it designed and the refrigeration specified. The walls are 8 inches. Waterproofed on the outside and then 2 in EPS stuck to the outside. In the inside, we framed up a 2x4 wall , installed power and drain lines and then sprayed insulation in the voids. After shaving the foam eve with the studs, I added a hard stucco finish to the interior wall. It has worked great for 15 years.

You cellar sound really cool and has unlimited possibilities. Given yours is above ground, consider having a professional calculate the heat load and your cooling needs. You don't want to over do it nor under do it. Too much and the system wont run enough to keep the humidity down. Too little and it won't cool. If you do use a pro, ask about two smaller units staged. For mine my I have a 2,500 and a 3,500 btu units. The larger one runs two evaporators.

Best of luck

 

[DaveL]

Are you doing this yourself or hiring a contractor?
Look into ICF concrete forms.
Even concrete filled masonry has all those mortar joints which can leak.
ICF should work in any area concrete blocks will and are better insulated. There are any number of waterproofing methods for the exterior that can then be covered. I agree with the earlier posts that consulting a pro with regards to the cooling system would be $ well spent
A good system would also regulate humidity obviously.
I disagree with the recommendation of earlier posts. Yes solid concrete acts as a thermal mass. This is a good thing however as once properly insulated on the exterior the mass will help to keep temps steady. Steady temps are as important as highs and lows, within reason. At least that's what I've read on other posts.
Good Luck

 

[whackfol]

Just reread my post. To clarify: the voids I refer to are the between the 2x4 wall on the inside. I have over 4 inches of foam insulation on the inside.
There is a trade off between cooling and insulation. For me it was easy. Cooling is more costly and I started trying to create a passive cellar. Gould book

 

[Sammyk]

Jeffn, where do you live?
While this is a very long thread, there is a lot of great information on our wine cellar construction thread here:
http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f19/hole-dug-our-new-wine-cellar-37380/