RJ Spagnols Challenge with Reds

[Sudz]

I've been making beer and wines for 3-4 years now. My beers are consistently better than you can buy. My middle-of-the-road white kit wines are good and rival those going for about $15. I've never lost a run from any type of infection or "housekeeping" issue. The process for my white and reds is virtually identical but my reds simply are not producing a quality product.

My reds all follow the same basic pattern with respect to taste. They start off with the typical green metallic bite which fades over time as they age. Generally by 6 months the flavor is as good as it gets. The green metallic taste is slowly displaced by a "prune" type of flavor. By a couple of years this flavor is over powering to the point I just pour it out.

My inability to adequately describe this flavor probably doesn't help with a diagnosis but it's as good as I can do. My wife agrees with the "prune" taste description.

This is unique to the reds. All have it to some degree. I do add an additional 1/4 tsp of meta at bottling for long term protection. I have had a few reds that did taste quite well for a short period after aging, but none for very long.

So my question is this. How might I go about identifying this issue?

 

[ibglowin]

With reds you really need to step up to the higher end kits. Next time look at those kits that are at least 15-16L in size and preferably those that come with a grape pack or skins of some sort. These will take longer to age (12mo min) but you will be much happier and you will be rewarded with something that will only improve with age and still be good after 3 years in the bottle. The other thing that could be happening is oxidation. If your wines were not properly sulfited before bottling they will not last long in the bottle. Make sure you add the package supplied and add a top up dose if you bulk age more than 3 months.

 

[saddlebronze]

This is an interesting thread because I have seen a big difference in whites between low end kits and fresh juice already. On the Reds, the Fresh Juice with oak Cabernet Franc is doing well, but I did a Caberlot mid range kit and added a syrah grape pack and that has the prune taste. Now doing 3 high end kits to see the difference. Seems like the prune taste might be a souring of the grape concentrate through the evaporation process. It shows up pretty quick during aging. Will let you know on the high end kits very soon.

 

[robie]

Sounds like you have sulfited well. Like Mike said, you most likely will do better with the higher-end red kits. Were any of the reds made with raisins? Just curious.

For reds, I make only the higher-end kits. I know they are expensive, but the Mosti Mondiale Meglioli kits are not concentrated, just pasteurized. They make some really nice wine. From that style, I have made the Barolo. It is only a year old and not yet ready, but I believe it will be really nice when it is two years old.

The higher-end red kits will take longer to come around. I have two specific high-end reds that are already two years old and still not really ready to drink. Some of the reason is my own fault. They will come around, though; just a matter of time.

Maybe you might want to stick to white kits and switch to making reds from fresh or frozen grapes. They are more expensive, but with the fresh or frozen grapes, you have the potential to make wine just as good as any wine maker out there. It all depends on the quality of grapes you use.

Keep at it and good luck.

 

[Sudz]

With reds you really need to step up to the higher end kits. .

Thanks for the feedback. I've considered this and have a Cellar Craft Red Mountain Cabernet Sauvignon in the bottle at about 1 month, and a CC Showcase Amarone in the works. This will be my first effort at high end kits. Unfortunately it'll be a year before I know anything. I'm hoping this gets past the prune barrier....

 

[Sudz]

Were any of the reds made with raisins? Just curious.

Maybe you might want to stick to white kits and switch to making reds from fresh or frozen grapes. They are more expensive, but with the fresh or frozen grapes, you have the potential to make wine just as good as any wine maker out there. It all depends on the quality of grapes you use.

Keep at it and good luck.

Haven't used raisins yet.

I did make a batch from some local Zinfandel grapes which was my best effort to date on a red. I blew some chemistry in the beginning which left me with a wine I knew wouldn't last very long. It didn't, but was good for a few months. When it crashed it too had the perceived prune taste... big time.

Fresh wine grapes are hard to come by around here. I might give the frozen ones a go if I can find them.

 

[robie]

Haven't used raisins yet.

I did make a batch from some local Zinfandel grapes which was my best effort to date on a red. I blew some chemistry in the beginning which left me with a wine I knew wouldn't last very long. It didn't, but was good for a few months. When it crashed it too had the perceived prune taste... big time.

Fresh wine grapes are hard to come by around here. I might give the frozen ones a go if I can find them.

If your red kit wines have the same smell as that Zin did when it crashed, it is likely oxidation in your kits. To me, oxidation is more of a raisin taste than prune, but we all can perceive smells differently.

After secondary, make sure you keep the wine topped off properly. After secondary, the wine level in the carboy should be within two inches of the bottom of the bung - always. Don't whip in too much air when you degas. Make sure the bung is tight in the carboy. Don't open it too often.

You can get fresh grapes in the Fall. Depending on where you live, you can get fresh Chilean grapes in the Spring. Other than that, you have to go with frozen grapes, which are just as good as fresh for making wine. Brehm Frozen Grapes are really expensive, but about the best you will ever find.

 

[Sudz]

If your red kit wines have the same smell as that Zin did when it crashed, it is likely oxidation in your kits. To me, oxidation is more of a raisin taste than prune, but we all can perceive smells differently.

After secondary, make sure you keep the wine topped off properly. After secondary, the wine level in the carboy should be within two inches of the bottom of the bung - always. Don't whip in too much air when you degas. Make sure the bung is tight in the carboy. Don't open it too often.

You can get fresh grapes in the Fall. Depending on where you live, you can get fresh Chilean grapes in the Spring. Other than that, you have to go with frozen grapes, which are just as good as fresh for making wine. Brehm Frozen Grapes are really expensive, but about the best you will ever find.

Oxidation is a possibility since the taste I'm finding could be described as a raisin taste. I haven't been topping up but I always fill the dead space with CO2. The thinking was this would keep the oxygen off the must. Hopefully that's a suitable solution. I use CO2 every time I rack or disturb the wine during production.

I switched some time back to vacuum degassing in part to avoid the whipping and exposure to air. I can't detect any difference between my degassing methods with respect to this issue. Vacuum degassing sure seems to be the way to go however.

I often wondered if hitting the wine with too much vacuum could cause issues such as ruptured yeast cells or extraction of desired compounds. Lots of reading online hasn't revealed this to be an issue so far.

I'm going to look into the frozen grapes as an alternative. In Oklahoma, buying fresh grapes has become difficult because every time I find a source, local wineries buy them out which cuts out guys like me.

 

[robie]

Oxidation is a possibility since the taste I'm finding could be described as a raisin taste. I haven't been topping up but I always fill the dead space with CO2. The thinking was this would keep the oxygen off the must. Hopefully that's a suitable solution. I use CO2 every time I rack or disturb the wine during production.

I switched some time back to vacuum degassing in part to avoid the whipping and exposure to air. I can't detect any difference between my degassing methods with respect to this issue. Vacuum degassing sure seems to be the way to go however.

I often wondered if hitting the wine with too much vacuum could cause issues such as ruptured yeast cells or extraction of desired compounds. Lots of reading online hasn't revealed this to be an issue so far.

I'm going to look into the frozen grapes as an alternative. In Oklahoma, buying fresh grapes has become difficult because every time I find a source, local wineries buy them out which cuts out guys like me.

My roots are in Oklahoma.

Don't rely on a periodic dose of CO2 gas to protect your wine, unless you dose it weekly or even more often. It just won't protect that well over the long haul. CO2 is one gas the can get absorbed by the wine, leaving you with no protection. I would guess this has been your problem all along. Go ahead and top off with a like-wine. For any red kit, if you don't have the like wine, you can always top off with Merlot. It has a somewhat neutral taste profile that makes it good for this purpose.

For some whites, the rupturing of yeast cells would be a good thing. However, I don't think that is the case. Just don't pull too big of a vacuum, just to make sure you don't rupture your carboy, instead!!! 20 inches is the max I recommend.

One of our sponsors close to Oklahoma is in Dallas - The Wine Maker's Toy Store. He sometimes has fresh grapes in the Fall. You just have to order early. Contact him.

You can order fresh grapes from different places, just keep your eyes peeled during August through October. Some wine clubs in larger cities have fresh grapes each year. I'll bet Tulsa or OK City has a wine club. Contact the LHBS and they can tell you if there is a local wine club.

 

[Sudz]

Outstanding assistance. Thanks Robie...

Alan...