Just started with wine making this year. Up to this batch I was doing the kits off Amazon (WineExpert & Fontana brand). I tried the hot pack juice from Walkers this time, Chardonnay. I followed the same process as the kits, started fermentation 10/2/24, racked to carboy 10/20/24, bottled on 11/22/24. Added Kieselsol and Chitosan the next day prior to racking after fermentation. When I bottled, it watched the siphon to try and pull as little lees as possible from the bottom. This picture was from today but most of the other bottles have it also. It appears to be crystalized and stays at the bottom as long as the bottle is poured slowly. I use Vintorio aerator pourers and the wine tastes great (to us) even this young. Does this indicate I should have racked again or just let it clear longer before bottling. My thought is since the Walkers juice was pure and not concentrate like the kits, they needed more bulk aging and time before bottling. If this lees is just cost of doing business, i'm fine with that. Adds to the story when telling friends.
Wanting to confirm my thoughts on this result
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Ohio Bob
Senior Member
Two issues.
Yes, you bottled way too soon. White wines typically need 6 months of bulk aging to drop the majority of the fine lees.
Secondly, it’s not advisable tp bottle straight from a carboy with lees, you will inadvertently pick up sediment. I use a fermentation bucket fitted with a spigot. I rack into the bucket, add Kmeta, whatever last minute blending I feel inclined to do, and bottle.
Have you done any damage? Not in the least. Feel free to keep doing it this way as long as you and your guests enjoy it.
Zooming in at your photo, the material is translucent. Crystals make sense. As a diagnostic if you have some in your mouth is it hard and sandy, if you rub some of it between fingers does it mush like lees or is it hard?
Grape juice has tartaric acid in it which can form bitartrate crystals. This fits with the appearance. You could create larger bitartrate crystals by chilling to 34 or 38F and letting them grow. The effect would be it is easier to separate them and possibly that the wine starts to taste thin / sweet vs acid balance is off. Northern hybrids have this technique done routinely and are improved. To learn you might refrigerate one for a week.
Grape juice has tartaric acid in it which can form bitartrate crystals. This fits with the appearance. You could create larger bitartrate crystals by chilling to 34 or 38F and letting them grow. The effect would be it is easier to separate them and possibly that the wine starts to taste thin / sweet vs acid balance is off. Northern hybrids have this technique done routinely and are improved. To learn you might refrigerate one for a week.
Kits are designed to get the wine in your glass ASAP ... because if they said it will take a year to bottle and another year in the bottle, they'd not sell any kits.
The kit instructions, regardless of vendor, are designed to meet the expectation of producing a drinkable result the first time and every time, and in a short time frame. It's not "best", but it is effective in bottling a wine in 4 to 8 weeks. And for many folks, that is fine.
The reality is that wines go through a lot of chemical changes in the first 4 to 12 months, depending on the wine. Light whites and fruits need less time, while heavy reds and fruits need more. Every wine is different and each has its own needs, so setting a one-size-fits-all schedule isn't the best idea.
Regardless of what you make next, ferment it dry and rack into a carboy. Skip the K&C. Let it rest 2 weeks then rack off the sediment. Top up the carboy and let it rest 3 months -- then taste test it.
And as Bob said, don't bottle from the carboy. Rack into a bucket, leaving any sediment behind, and add K-meta. then bottle.
The kit instructions, regardless of vendor, are designed to meet the expectation of producing a drinkable result the first time and every time, and in a short time frame. It's not "best", but it is effective in bottling a wine in 4 to 8 weeks. And for many folks, that is fine.
The reality is that wines go through a lot of chemical changes in the first 4 to 12 months, depending on the wine. Light whites and fruits need less time, while heavy reds and fruits need more. Every wine is different and each has its own needs, so setting a one-size-fits-all schedule isn't the best idea.
Regardless of what you make next, ferment it dry and rack into a carboy. Skip the K&C. Let it rest 2 weeks then rack off the sediment. Top up the carboy and let it rest 3 months -- then taste test it.
And as Bob said, don't bottle from the carboy. Rack into a bucket, leaving any sediment behind, and add K-meta. then bottle.
Thank you for the replies and confirmation of my thought. I do have another question. You mention siphoning to a bucket before bottling. I have been going from the carboy when bottling so I can see the bottom and with Whites be able to see when the siphon cap might start pulling in lees. Is using a bucket to achieve the same effect?
Ohio Bob
Senior Member
Yes, but wines are known to stratify, especially when oak is used. I don’t know why that is, but has been reported several times. When you bottle straight from the carboy, bottle 1 is guaranteed to be different than bottle 20.
Also, do you not add Kmeta right before bottling? It is highly recommended to add Kmeta right before bottling to minimize oxidation in your wine.
Racking from the carboy guarantees that any sediment that is accidentally sucked up is distributed to every bottle. You won’t have one that is worse than another.
In my opinion there is no benefit to bottling straight from the carboy. Also, no detriment by racking to a bottling bucket, and adding Kmeta.
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When racking, I don't drop the racking cane to the bottom of the source container, as that guarantees you will suck up sediment. I start by holding it about half way down, and lower it as the level of wine drops. When I get to the end, I leave a bottle or two in the source container to ensure I've not sucked up sediment. For a 19 liter carboy, that gives me 23 or 24 clear bottles.
The remainder I rack as carefully as possible, and put it in the fridge for a few days to clear. The sediment will drop again.
I've added 1/4 tsp postassium metabisulfite (I believe is the same as Kmeta right?) the day before adding yeast to the Walkers juice and to two batches of Must I've done. Should it be added again before bottling?
I'll try the fridge trick next time. I keep the cane about half way with the clip resting on the bottle neck until the volume gets low enough to need it pushed in further. I've used a piece of 2x4 when it gets close to the bottom to tilt the carboy and help get all the wine, but I can see the value in putting it in a fridge on that angle for a day or two so the lees rests.
Ohio Bob
Senior Member
Adding Kmeta to the juice is good, it knocks down any bacteria present in the juice. However, Kmeta is not a one time addition. In bulk aging, it needs to be added every 3 months or so. As well as at bottling. Remember it is an anti oxidant as well as an anti bacterial.
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Yes, kmeta (K for potassium) should be added about every three months during aging. If you don't agree for three months, then it should be added prior to bottling.
I do reaching a bit differently than some others. I don't worry about picking up a little bit of sediment, since I know I will be reaching again. And I won't bother a wine that has any kind of Lee's on the bottom, so I don't track into bottling bucket, but bottle from a carboy.
Thank you both. I was overly concerned about adding additives unnecessarily.
BernardSmith
Senior Member
The idea of racking into a bucket from the fermenter is at the LAST racking before bottling. With wine, you invariably have some lees (sediment) at the bottom of your carboy: and not, you can use a bucket for ACTIVE fermentation (the first few weeks) because headroom is not an issue in wine making at that stage. You can then rack to a carboy (a vessel with a narrow neck that restricts the size of the surface area in contact with air) and rack every two or three months into a carboy, but before bottling, seasoned wine makers tend to suggest that you rack to a bucket and from that bucket you bottle. That has the effect of minimizing the inclusion of any lees, though after a few months in a bottle, you may find some sediment forming, particularly with red wines. This for all kinds of organic chemical reasons.
You aren’t the only one to bottle from a carboy. I put the carboy on a wedge for bottling and label the last two bottles.
If you mix in sorbate, sugar, chemicals a bucket is easier,
If you mix in sorbate, sugar, chemicals a bucket is easier,
Sailor323
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My racking cane has a baffle on the end which reduces the amount of lees picked up and when I rack the 3rd time into a bottling bucket there are virtually no lees left to pick up. I nearly always get 28-29 bottles of finished wine from a 6 gallon kit.
As a yearling, what I have done is use a fermentation bucket with a spigot. I usually have racked three times before bottling. When in the bucket, I add the k-meta one last time while transferring the wine. I let the bucket sit for a day or so, then bottle using the spigot leaving any other lees behind. So far this has given me very little sediment in my bottles.
what do you think?
what do you think?
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