Champagne Sugar

[Tovis]

Have any of you ever made champagne? About how much sugar do you use per gallon during the secondary fermentation?

 

[JohnT]

Use priming sugar. You can get this in any homebrew supply shop.

I like to use 24 grams per 750 ml bottle.

One additional piece of advice.. Be safe! The pressure involved here is not a joke. Once it has fermented, use eye protection and thick gloves when handling your champagne. Believe me, I know.

 

[BernardSmith]

That is a lot of CO2. 4 g sugar in a beer bottle (500ml) is one volume. So 24 g per 750 ml is about 4 volumes. Isn't that about the maximum pressure you can safely place on a champagne bottle?

 

[JohnT]

Champagne take a lot more carbonation than beer.

Champagne bottles are very thick and built to withstand high pressures. There is a reason that some champagne labels warn to "point away from yourself when opening". Yup, the pressures can be high.

A typical champagne will have 70 to 90psi when at rest and after CO2 has gone into solution. 24 grams of sugar is a good average dosage for a dry champagne.

 

[Tovis]

Do you sorbate with the dosage?

 

[JohnT]

Just to put is out there, have you ever entertained the idea of forced carbonation....

Place your clear, finished wine into corney keg, purge and pressurize with CO2 to about 25 psi, then put it into a fridge for a couple of weeks (minimum), adding more CO2 (every couple of days) to maintain 25 psi??

Unlike natural carbonation, this results in clear, crisp champagne that will not require any disgorging.

I started using this method several years ago and I really do prefer it.

 

[Tovis]

I wonder if I used too little sugar. I added 1 cup for about 3.5 gallons.

 

[seth8530]

You do not add sorbate if you are bottle carbonating.

I estimate that for your batch size of 3.5 gallons and wanting 6 volumes of co2 ( I read that 7 is the max a bottle could handle) that you would have needed 8.7 oz of sugar by weight. I estimate that your cup of sugar weighted 7 ozs.. So, if it is fermetning it should be getting pretty bubbly. Perhaps not uber uber carbed, but carbed quite well all the same..

To give you an idea most beers use a max of 3 volumes of CO2.

http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html

 

[JohnT]

Seth,

He wants to back sweeten his champagne after disgorging.

 

[seth8530]

I have read it is possible to do that... Kind of a pain from what I hear, but if I remember correctly the procedure goes something like disgorge and then make up the lost volume with a sweetened component. The method I read did not call for sorbate because I believe the idea is that the yeast "all" gets blown out during the process. But, I would likely add sorbate to the sugar agent anyways.

 

[JohnT]

I have read it is possible to do that... Kind of a pain from what I hear, but if I remember correctly the procedure goes something like disgorge and then make up the lost volume with a sweetened component. The method I read did not call for sorbate because I believe the idea is that the yeast "all" gets blown out during the process. But, I would likely add sorbate to the sugar agent anyways.

Well,

Normally a champagne is capped and aged anywhere from 18 months to 3 years before disgorging. I believe that (by that time) the yeast has long since died.

I am assuming that the OP is not waiting that long and wants to use sorbate to prevent any residual yeast from fermenting the back-sweetener.

 

[Tovis]

I popped a crown cap off one and it had almost no fizz and was dry as a cardboard box. I added 3 teaspoons of priming sugar to each bottle. I also re-inoculated them with ec1118 and added some yeast nutrient.

I'm storing them in boxes in the bath tub just in case some burst.

Not sure why it has no fizz, I've made root beer before a bunch of times. Perhaps the acidity is too high for the yeast to do its thing. I'll check one after a while. If it doesn't work, this might be the first wine I dump down the drain. If not perhaps I'll pop it in a glass carboy with an airlock and let time do its thing to make it a still wine.

 

[barbiek]

Told ya NO SORBATE, but better you find out by experience! Haven't been a member of this forum for long but I do know what sorbate does been making wine from fresh fruit, fresh grapes, kits, made some pretty good tweaks and made champagne successfully

Thanks

 

[Tovis]

They have not been sorbated yet, why would I sorbate prior to the 2nd (bottle) fermentation? That would be silly. I know what it does too. It is more or less is a birth control powder you dump on yeast as in it inhibits the reproduction of yeast.

I am wondering if acidity or something is too high.

 

[barbiek]

They have not been sorbated yet, why would I sorbate prior to the 2nd (bottle) fermentation? That would be silly. I know what it does too. It is more or less is a birth control powder you dump on yeast as in it inhibits the reproduction of yeast.

I am wondering if acidity or something is too high.

Well according to your pineapple champagne thread and all the pms I had received from you your intention was to add sorbate prior to. When and how else would you add? And it doesn't matter when you add it, it has no place in making champagne and I'm glad you looked up the definition.
And as far as the acidity being to high that is what I meant when I said you were brave to make your first champagne a pineapple. Do you have anything to test acidity? If the wine had a good strong fermentation and fermented to dry then acidity is probably not the problem if it were me I would keep it as a still wine and try your champagne on a white grape you will have a better out come

 

[Tovis]

What?



I just read over everything.



Do we have a different definition of dosage?



Dosage—Sugar added to champagne after disgorgement, either through a liqueur d'expédition, which is a solution of cane or beet sugar and wine, or MCR, concentrated and rectified grape must. The dosage is usually a crucial component of champagne, as it balances the naturally high acidity of the wine and plays an important role in the aging process. The level of dosage determines the category of champagne (i.e. Extra Brut, Brut, Extra Dry, Demi-Sec, etc.), and the majority of champagnes today are dosed as brut, between 0-15 grams of sugar per liter, with an average dosage in Champagne estimated at around 10-12 grams. (champagneguide.net)

I knew what it did when I started making wine a while back. I think everybody on the forum probably knows what it does but might not know exactly how.

I am not sure how you think I was adding sorbate prior to making it fizz, carbonate, bottle ferment. That would be pointless.

I want to add it when I sweeten so they dont blow up if some active yeast is still reproducing and active in the bottle after it has fizz to it.

 

[barbiek]

Ok Tovis tell us all the steps you've taken so far from step one being wine recipe ALL ingredients and additions used and procedures you have taken so far and the next steps you plan on doing and additions please

Thanks

 

[barbiek]

Tovis thought you didn't want to wait the 18 month aging time?

 

[JohnT]

Tovis,

It can be hard to get that yeast to kick off. This is due to the high alcohol content (even with EC-1118). Another thing to watch is the amount of K-meta you use.

To make things a bit easier, I like to add sugar and cap the wine just as soon as the specific gravity falls under 1.0 (during primary fermentation) but before the wine clears.

It is at this point that most (if not all) of the sugar is fermented out, but there is still a nice healthy population of live yeast.

Although capping this soon will end up with more sediment, I have had great success.

 

[Tovis]

I do wonder if possibly the alcohol content is too high too. What percentage is usually a max to where the yeast is not happy?

Actually, what you were talking about is what I wanted to try, since I knew it was going to clear the rest of the way in the bottle.

I uncapped one after 24 hours and it appears to be a bit more fizzy. Not as much action as when I make root beer but perhaps it takes a lot longer.

I'll post what I did when I know it failed if it does. I'll just give them some time.

Also, I wonder if the temp might be a tad high? We have been keeping our place in the 70s for our baby.