Chitosan + Kieselsol verses Isinglass

[asterof]

So I am pretty sure Kieselsol and Chitosan are always used together
But does Isinglass take the place of both of those in one
chemical.
Thanks

 

[buckhorn]

I can not answer your question as I don't know a lot about Isinglass.

But.... Keiselsol and Chitosan are not always together -- I just acquired a kit that contains Chitosan as the clearing agent, but there is not Kieselsol with it.

 

[ckvchestnut]

What is your fruit base? From what in have learned there are different fruit bases that require certain fining types...

 

[jamesngalveston]

Isinglass is made from fish bladders ...a freshwater white fish called cichild,are sturgeons. binda to postive charged material

chitosan is made from shellfish...shrimpshells,crabshells,etc. binds to negative charged material.

Kieselsol,silicon dioxide compound- is made into a gelatin, that helps the charged particles fall out as sediment.

 

[cpfan]

Isinglass is made from fish bladders ...a freshwater white fish called cichild,are sturgeons. binda to postive charged material

chitosan is made from shellfish...shrimpshells,crabshells,etc. binds to negative charged material.

Kieselsol,silicon dioxide compound- is made into a gelatin, that helps the charged particles fall out as sediment.

James my understanding is that...

isinglass and chitosan are positive charge, and bind to negatively charged particles

bentonite and kieselsol are negative charge, and bind to positively charged particles

https://winemakermag.com/26-a-clearer-understanding-of-fining-agents

Some wine kits include bentonite and isinglass. Other kits include bentonite and chitosan. Some other kits include bentonite, chitosan, and kieselsol.

From this, one could infer that isinglass and chitosan are inter-changeable, but I'm not sure that is 100% true.

Steve

 

[jamesngalveston]

I think you are correct in that isinglass and chitosan are interchangable.
Electrostatic Charge and all that jazz
Our three basic fining aids; copper finings, auxiliary finings and isinglass finings are all charge-based processes. All molecules in solution or colloidal suspension possess an electrostatic charge. The amount of charge is specific to the substance in question and is highly dependant upon the pH of the solution it finds itself in, but we will come to pH effects later. An electrostatic charge behaves just like a magnet, except that a magnet has two poles, whereas a molecule has just one pole or a charge of just one polarity, either a positive charge or a negative charge (or a neutral charge). Protein, for example, has a positive charge whereas yeast has a negative charge. Going back to our magnet analogy, we know that opposite poles on a magnet attract each other, whereas like poles repel. The same is true of an electrostatic charge. Molecules of the same charge repel one another and force each other apart, whereas two molecules of opposite charge will attract each other and coalesce. Protein molecules have a positive charge and when in suspension these molecules repel one another which spaces them away from each other, and they cannot easily come together to coalesce into larger particles heavy enough to drop out of solution. Yeast behaves in the same way, except that it has a negative charge. Finings have the opposite charge to the stuff we are trying to remove. The finings then attract the yeast or protein to itself, causing larger, heavier flocs which drop out of suspension faster. Isinglass finings, for example, has a strong positive charge. When isinglass is added to beer its strong positive charge causes its molecules to space themselves out like a web and attract negatively charged yeast cells to it. This then drop down though the beer, attracting more yeast cells to it, which are pulled out of suspension with the isinglass.

 

[keahunter]

James, so if I understand this...I can use isinglass and keiselsol together to clear instead of using superkleer, which is chitosan and Keiselsol to get the same result? Wife is allergic to shellfish and although I know a bunch of people say there's no problem I don't want to take a chance. Just looking for another alternative to Sparkalloid. Having read Dangerdaves sparkalloid/superkleer experiment, I think I would prefer the superkleer (or it's alternative). Am I making any sense, I think I just confused myself

 

[richmke]

In general, WE uses chitosan with reds, and isinglass with whites and blushes. Chitosan is made from shellfish, and isinglass is made from fish.

http://www.winexpert.com/wine-wiki/show/Fining+Agents,+Isinglass,+Chitosan,+Bentonite

> I just acquired a kit that contains Chitosan as the clearing agent, but there is not Kieselsol with it.

The kit probably contained bentonite. That is a substitute for the kieselsol.

I believe that isinglass removes tannins, so that may be why chitosan is preferred with reds.

> Just looking for another alternative to Sparkalloid.

Do you have enough time to let the wine clear by itself? Then you can skip the fining agents all together.

 

[asterof]

wow that got all technical on us, good information
Thanks

 

[jamesngalveston]

every thing i have read says that insinglass is made from fresh water fish, so i would assume it would be an alternate to the chitosan in super kleer.
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i·sin·glass (zn-gls, zng-)
n.
1. A transparent, almost pure gelatin prepared from the air bladder of the sturgeon and certain other fishes and used as an adhesive and a clarifying agent.

 

[Turock]

Well, what are you trying to do? Are you trying to get rid of haze or is this as a fining agent? Isinglass has a high positive charge and used mostly in whites,rose and fruit wines. It can improve clarity and filterability. But it's not cold sensitive, so it can take quite some time to settle out.

Protein haze is best dealt with with a negatively charged clarifing agent since proteins have a positive charge. Don't forget that,sometimes, and added dose of pectic enzyme will clear a cloudy wine when other things don't seem to work. Especially if you use a better pectinase such as Lallzyne C-Max--it specifically aids in clarification.

 

[jamesngalveston]

Lallzyne C-Max , have never heard of that, but If you reccomend it, I am getting it....Thanks...

 

[Deezil]

Especially if you use a better pectinase such as Lallzyne C-Max--it specifically aids in clarification.

Nice to see other people finally recommending some of these better additives. I got tired of always bringing them up because it seemed everyone was happy with 'good enough'

Lallemand has put out a whole line of enzymes, for anyone interested; they've got enzymes for just about every wine type/style.

 

[jamesngalveston]

I do not want good enough...I want the best, period...
Learned a long time ago....if you want to have the best you have to pay the best...if you want to sale the best product, you have to pay the price for the best .

 

[Turock]

We started using Lallzyme when it first came out and were surprised how well it did on clarifying our dense musts when not using water. Then they came out with the C-Max which is specifically for reducing viscous musts. It de-pectinizes at a faster rate than regular pectic enzymes, so it aids in clarification.

We just got done ordering all our supplies for this year's ferments, and now have replaced regular pectic enzyme for Lallzyme C-Max. Gotta keep up with the times because there are better and better products for us home winemakers, that were never there before.

 

[jamesngalveston]

Thanks Turock for all your great advice...I ordered 60g from morewines, yesterday.
got some fermaide K on oder as well..see if its different then superferment.

 

[Turock]

You're welcome, James. Yeah, we've started using Fermaid K ourselves, instead of nutrient with so much DAP in it. Fermaid K has more micro-nutrients in it and also vitamins that DAP nutrients don't have. Remember that wine is a poor source of nutrients for yeast--so better nutrient support gives the yeast better alcohol tolerance, among other things. Altho, it can be handy to have some DAP around, just in case you run into a ferment that begins to have H2S issues.

I forgot to mention that you need to rehydrate Fermaid K with Go-Ferm. So be sure to order some of that.too.

 

[DocDRB]

Egg white and Bentonite

I know this is a pretty old thread but any advice on avoiding Chitosan in a kit that has no Kieselsol? I am making a Barbera from WE. I have succeeded in the past using Kieselsol followed by eggwhite. WE recommended Bentonite as an option but I was wondering about combining Bentonite and eggwhite (I have used 1/2 eggwhite for 6 gallons in the past) Thanks.

 

[richmke]

For red wines, I avoid it all. I let time do the work.

 

[Johnd]

I too do not use the clearing agents on my nice reds. If you intend to use clearing agents, my experience with them over the 50+ kits I've done makes my preference bentonite in primary, followed by chitosan after degassing. Always dropped the sediment quickly.