Clarifying agents and fruit wine?

[batchel9]

All,

I am on my first batches ever of fresh fruit wine. I have made a grape wine in the past and had to add clarifying agents per instructions. My instructions / recipes for my fruit wines don't say to add clarifiers to them.
1. Should I add clearing agents to my fruit wines and
2. If no, why not? The instructions do not have you add any clearing products.

Just trying to understand...

Thanks!!

 

[Downwards]

I think you'll get a variety of answers on this.

My opinion is that most don't need clarifying agents, and that time and degassing (if you want to speed things up) get the job done pretty well.

On the other hand, I did clarify with bentonite the first wines I made because I was so antsy and always wanted to be doing something to it other then leaving it alone. I think that partially as a result of that my blackberry jam wine won a gold medal at the fair with the judges notes all saying something like "Superior Clarity!!!" Do I need superior clarity every time? Nope, not for my own sake, mostly I call it clear when it looks clear in the glass, but I probably would go the extra mile for competition again.

Also per advice I've been given for my peach wine that will happen shortly, I will bentonite in primary. Why? Just because folks seem to be telling me it will be easier to clear this wine which is normally more difficult than some others.

I'll bet the reasons why you might want to and the reasons you might not are just exactly what they would be with a grape wine. Some lighter colored wines just really make a great presentation when sparkly clear, but some darker colored ones are already pretty hard to see through in either case, so you may as well not lose any flavor, scent or mouthfeel to the clearing agent.

What fruit are you about to do? Bet lots of folks here will have more to tell you about that if they knew what you were making.

 

[jamesngalveston]

on my black berry wine, I use egg whites, works great for blackberry.
all else, i use super=kleer.

 

[Julie]

I don't normally use clarifiers unless I have a wine that has been in the carboy for 6 months and still not clearing, then I hit it with some superklear.

Clarifiers are not needed to make wine, they are an aid to help you with a problem with your wine. Kits always have clarifiers in because the last thing a kit company would want is someone to make a wine that does not turn out correctly. A lot of people will add bentonite prior to fermentation as an insurance of their wine clearing.

It is your choice, if you would feel more comfortable adding a clarifier then go ahead and do so.

And by the way. Welcome to winemakingtalk

 

[Turock]

If you make fruit wines the way we do--which is all fruit and no water---then the wine is very dense. Bentonite in the primary is what we do. And the reason for this is so we don't have clarification problems when we're trying to bottle. It takes more time to clarify in the post ferment with bentonite than it does when used in the primary. Bentonite does more than clarify, as it heat stabilizes the wine so you don't get cloudiness when the wine is stored under certain conditions and refrigerated. It also deals with protein haze very well. We don't favor Super Kleer because sometimes it doesn't work. And on whites, it takes them to a golden color.

You want your wines to be pretty. It's not esthetically pleasant to be given a glass of wine that looks like dishwater.

We bentonite almost all of our wines---absolutely on whites---never on red grapes, altho there's no problem doing it. Red wines clear very well on there own because they need bulk aging. Most of our fruit wines get bentonite too. All that dense fruit does not fall clear very well on its own.

 

[salcoco]

the advice to add bentonite in peach and possibly pear wines in primary is well founded. I have done both with and without. with is easier to clear.
as far as post ferment it depends on your patience. if not add clarifier otherwise let it sit and they will clear.

 

[Turock]

And therein lies the problem---sometimes they NEVER clear!! I can't tell you how many fights we've had with wines that won't clear on their own--even after a whole year. Pear, apple,peach and Niagara come to mind. And sometimes even the Super Kleer wouldn't work. That's why we started using bentonite in most wines.

Take a lesson from someone who's been there so you don't suffer the way we used to. Bentonite your wines in the primary and you'll have easy cruising to bottling time.

 

[batchel9]

Thanks everyone for the responses!! I have only made and bottled one 5 gallon kit wine and then jumped to fresh fruits (maybe a bad idea?) because I like drinking them more than the standard reds and whites!! I have 1 gallon batches of watermelon, strawberry, rhubarb, and cherry in various stages of fermentation. I tried to follow recipes from EC Kraus (http://www.eckraus.com/wine-recipes/) and also a 5 gallon batch of black current made using Vintner's Harvest fruit base and the instructions on there. (If anyone has any favorite recipe websites they recommend....I would love to hear about them!!).

In short, sounds like I missed the bus on the bentonite in primary since mine going so far are largely through primary. I'll have to try this for future wines however. If I have issues with the ones in progress, sounds like I can consider some Superklear.

Some folks mentioned degassing to help speed things along..... at what point specifically would you degas? Or is it truly recommended to just wait the extra time?

 

[Downwards]

I degas when the fermentation is done. Lots of ways to do this by stirring etc. As it's been explained to me (I love this metaphor so if I'm paraphrasing someone from these forums, hope I do it justice) you can imagine a swimming pool filled with golf balls mixed in with soft balls. The golf balls might be the gas and the soft balls might be the sediment. Well if you pull out the golf balls what do the soft balls do? They drop to the bottom. I'm finding this to be mostly the case with my wines.
I degas by using a wine bottle storage pump which was made to suck air out of a bottle of wine you mean to finish later. It's hard to explain so I'll just find the video that I saw.. you'll see lots more videos suggested that work in different ways- [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjL80hXkHdI[/ame] Other people stir it with something attached to a drill, or use more high tech pumps (I mean to have one some day.. I love this link http://www.winemakingtalk.com/entries/DIY-Vacuum-Pump.html )

 

[Deezil]

I degas when the fermentation is done. Lots of ways to do this by stirring etc. As it's been explained to me (I love this metaphor so if I'm paraphrasing someone from these forums, hope I do it justice) you can imagine a swimming pool filled with golf balls mixed in with soft balls. The golf balls might be the gas and the soft balls might be the sediment. Well if you pull out the golf balls what do the soft balls do? They drop to the bottom. I'm finding this to be mostly the case with my wines.

I compare it more to NFL Football or Rugby..

There's two teams on the field, pushing on eachother - CO2 wanting to get to the 'touchdown' at the airlock, and sediment wanting a 'touchdown' at the bottom of the carboy... Well if you take one team off the field, the other doesnt have any problems making touchdowns.. So when you pull out the CO2, down drops the sediment.

Although using a Vinovac takes forever

 

[Downwards]

It really does, lol. I spend a good deal of time in the wine room though. You have to be careful on those first few pumps too, it can blow out the top. I usually do some, leave it on with some suction to go slowly, come back later and do some more.

 

[Turock]

It's not necessary to degass non-kit wines that are not early drinkers. Fruit wines should be bulked aged because wine is not stable until you've removed as many yeast cells as is possible---and in that time frame, the wine degasses by itself. Degassing runs the risk of oxidation. And actually, what are you accomplishing by manual degassing, when the wine needs to sit and age and have all the sediment drop out?

Skeeter pee, dragon's blood are some wines you can degass because they are meant for early drinking and not aging. But all other wines should be allowed to sit and bulk age. You won't be touching your fruit wines for 9 months to 1 year because they aren't good until then. Flavors need to firm up too.

I really discourage manual degassing, altho many people on this forum talk about it and seem to do it. This seems to be a left-over technique from people's experience with kits. But it's the wrong way to approach fruit and grape wines.

 

[FABulousWines]

Turock, since the topic is fruit wines I agree with most of what you have said. However, the statement "all other wines" is a bit too absolute! I would include mist wine kits in the category of early drinkers that can be degassed and cleared on a shorter schedule. I have a batch of Peach Chardonnay that is on pace to be racked, filtered and bottled in just over 3 weeks. However, I have a Malbec going that is aging on oak right now and I haven't done a flippin thing as far as degassing and/or clearing and it's something like 6 weeks in. So yeah, right process for the right wine.

 

[Deezil]

It's not necessary to degass non-kit wines that are not early drinkers. Fruit wines should be bulked aged because wine is not stable until you've removed as many yeast cells as is possible---and in that time frame, the wine degasses by itself. Degassing runs the risk of oxidation. And actually, what are you accomplishing by manual degassing, when the wine needs to sit and age and have all the sediment drop out?

Skeeter pee, dragon's blood are some wines you can degass because they are meant for early drinking and not aging. But all other wines should be allowed to sit and bulk age. You won't be touching your fruit wines for 9 months to 1 year because they aren't good until then. Flavors need to firm up too.

I really discourage manual degassing, altho many people on this forum talk about it and seem to do it. This seems to be a left-over technique from people's experience with kits. But it's the wrong way to approach fruit and grape wines.

I'm guessing with 'manual degassing', you probably include vacuum pumps although its a lot less on the 'manual' part

I use my vacuum pump to degas post-fermentation, to isolate the gross lees & by removing a majority of the CO2 from the equation, it allows those gross lees to compact faster and me to draw off the "lost wine" at a quicker rate, lessening its exposure to the break-down of the gross lees.

My degassing goes hand in hand with my first dosage of K-meta.

Degas
Let 'er sit for about 30-45 minutes
Rack off Gross Lees
Add K-meta

Following days, draw off clear wine from gross lees, further isolating

As you can see, I dont leave a majority of the wine in contact with the gross lees - this is opposite of how I treat the sur lees. My wines can sit, after the rack/degas/k-meta for anywhere from 6 weeks to about 3 months.

And I bulk age for at least 18 months, which I understand is enough time for it to have degassed itself and cleared on its own, however, I like to get the CO2 out of the way because it inhibits my ability to tell how the wine is aging - it throws off the aroma, mouthfeel (tingly) and acidity on the palette.. Which will hurt my perception, when it comes to post-fermentation alterations - oak/tannin, additives, dried fruits, herbs/vanilla bean/chocolate, etc..

Speeds clarification
Helps show true character of wine
Recovers 'lost wine' from gross lees

And I have a sneaky suspicion that the gross lees / 'yeast' are less-decomposed and 'healthier' when compared to gross lees that are allowed to drop over several days in a higher-CO2 environment... I think this may become important when it comes to trying to isolate and play with various indigenous strains, or 'make my own strain' as has been discussed on the forum before - which is something im highly interested in once my vineyard is planted.. To store/carry-over yeast from year to year, I wouldnt want to regeneration a yeast colony from yeast that sat in gross lees for an extended amount of time when I have the means to lessen that time

 

[jamesngalveston]

you mean like when new orleans saints beat the heck out of some other team.
lol

 

[Turock]

Deezil--I see where you are coming from. But you're an experienced winemaker who has knowledge of WHY he's doing WHAT he's doing. I find it interesting that you're tasting your wines along the way. In 24 years, I have to say I've never done that. We do no evaluation of anything until we have wines that are aged--then we taste them and see if we want to oak, etc. Just a different style than what you do.

Fab---All fruit wines made from fruit--not concentrates, etc--and grape wines need bulk aging. You're attempting to get the bulk of the yeast cells removed because this is number one to a stable wine, especially if you're going to backsweeten and use sorbate. There is a ton of micro-sediment in wine, especially grape wine, and it's imperitive that you get this removed from the wine so that it doesn't become cloudy once bottled, stored, and refrigerated.

To say this a different way--so many people only seem to think that after a racking or two and manual degassing, their wine is stable and they can do anything they want to it including sweetening and using sorbate. And the wine is only 3 to 6 months old! There are so many new winemakers on this site and I don't want them to get started off on the wrong foot. For them, reading some of these techniques is the wrong info for them. There's more going on in a wine that you can't see---many things happening on a molecular level while it's aging that needs to be considered and not interrupting that by constantly manipulating a young wine.

 

[Deezil]

Deezil--I see where you are coming from. But you're an experienced winemaker who has knowledge of WHY he's doing WHAT he's doing. I find it interesting that you're tasting your wines along the way. In 24 years, I have to say I've never done that. We do no evaluation of anything until we have wines that are aged--then we taste them and see if we want to oak, etc. Just a different style than what you do.

To say this a different way--so many people only seem to think that after a racking or two and manual degassing, their wine is stable and they can do anything they want to it including sweetening and using sorbate. And the wine is only 3 to 6 months old! There are so many new winemakers on this site and I don't want them to get started off on the wrong foot. For them, reading some of these techniques is the wrong info for them. There's more going on in a wine that you can't see---many things happening on a molecular level while it's aging that needs to be considered and not interrupting that by constantly manipulating a young wine.

I taste it all the way from the fruit, to juice, through fermentation, into bulk aging, before & after all tweaks.. The palette is the 'final say', so to not use it as a tool along the way, would just make it harder than it need be.. As the batches stack up, and I start to do the same fruits for a second/third time, I can start to pick out certain good & bad notes way earlier than they'd present themselves otherwise.

I like to try to remember what I tasted in the fruit & see how far it carries through the wine; also keeping note of the different flavors that come into play during fermentation (from the yeast) and how those meld/contrast with the original fruit flavors in the memory bank.. When the additives, oaks/tannins, etc come into play, the 'layers' become crystal clear in my mind because i've been layering them on my palette and into memory..

You've been making wine almost as long as I've been alive

On that second part - I wholeheartedly agree. People who can make a fruit/grape wine fermented, stabilized/sweetened/mlf'd, cleared, and bottled in under 6 months.. I really dont know how they do it. I cant. I just.. Cant.

The only thing I can think of is an insane under-usage of fruit-pounds per gallon (hard to even attempt, with grapes), something along the lines of SP/DB amounts. SP/DB only calls for 4-6lbs a gallon, and thats fine for that quick drinking wine-equivalent of a 'Mike's Hard'..

For anyone reading this, thinking "Thats me!"... if you wish to make a bottle of wine that can make the one of those people who grimace at 'homemade wine', change their mind, AND be holding a bottle from several years ago.. You'll have to up the pounds of fruit / subtract the water, & it's a game-changer for the rest of the process; everything takes longer.

Even though I degas immediately after fermentation, and drop those gross lees out.. My wine still isnt newspaper-reading clear for 6-8 months, if then.. I dont use anything other than pectic enzyme & bentonite.. I know this is a clarifiying agent thread, but you dont want to strip all of that out of there too fast, or you miss out on the molecular reactions happening that Turock hinted at. Clarifiying agents can most-definitely remove compounds that impact the flavor, mouthfeel and aroma of a wine, so to remove those compounds too soon is to miss out on those reactions. These particles that drop out for the coming months post-fermentation wont spoil your wine either - there's really no hurry.

I dont even approach my bulk aging wine with sorbate & sugar until its over a year old.. The flavors havent came together enough, the alcohol hasnt settled enough - how do you know when its in balance if the other 80% of the wine is still trying to figure itself out? I dunno...

Where's Tom when ya need him?! When I first started making wine, I couldn't start a batch without him posting "Patience, Patience, Patience!".. And so many of these new winemakers are missing out on that lesson, without even realizing what they're missing out on!

 

[Turock]

I have to say that I can't tell anything about a wine when it has just completed its fermentation. Every now and then, we'll have a little leftover from the racking to the secondary so we'll just drink that and it's the most uninteresting experience I ever had.

We're very confident in our process and KNOW that it's going to turn out great, so we don't stress and just allow the wine to sit in the secondary and taste when we get to the 1 year mark.

Oh, what a left-handed comment THAT is--that we've been making wine almost as long as you've been alive!!! LOL

I think that people who drink wines early are just anxious to taste what they've done. To see if they were successful enough to start another fermentation. Wine is something you can't rush because it has its OWN agenda.

 

[Pumpkinman]

I've used sparkolloid on every batch of DB, melome and fruit wine that I've made. They all cleared perfectly, I also filter them.

 

[Eric336]

Hi, blackberry jam wine sounds amazing. I would love to get that recipe from you.

I think you'll get a variety of answers on this.

My opinion is that most don't need clarifying agents, and that time and degassing (if you want to speed things up) get the job done pretty well.

On the other hand, I did clarify with bentonite the first wines I made because I was so antsy and always wanted to be doing something to it other then leaving it alone. I think that partially as a result of that my blackberry jam wine won a gold medal at the fair with the judges notes all saying something like "Superior Clarity!!!" Do I need superior clarity every time? Nope, not for my own sake, mostly I call it clear when it looks clear in the glass, but I probably would go the extra mile for competition again.

Also per advice I've been given for my peach wine that will happen shortly, I will bentonite in primary. Why? Just because folks seem to be telling me it will be easier to clear this wine which is normally more difficult than some others.

I'll bet the reasons why you might want to and the reasons you might not are just exactly what they would be with a grape wine. Some lighter colored wines just really make a great presentation when sparkly clear, but some darker colored ones are already pretty hard to see through in either case, so you may as well not lose any flavor, scent or mouthfeel to the clearing agent.

What fruit are you about to do? Bet lots of folks here will have more to tell you about that if they knew what you were making.