Commercial wineries using exclusively Flex tanks

[Rocktop]

Hi all, does anyone know of commercial wineries who use flex tanks exclusively?
Can they be used for whites too, or just too much oxygen transmission?

RT

 

[Vern]

Hi all, does anyone know of commercial wineries who use flex tanks exclusively?
Can they be used for whites too, or just too much oxygen transmission?

RT

I recently spoke with a small commercial winery about this exact question, she indicated that most all reds are aged in flex tanks but no whites.

 

[Rocktop]

Ok that was my thought as well, starting to look at small scale winery equipment options and flex tanks would work much better for my situation than barrels. Tough to lug up and down stairs for cleaning time…
I assume they kept their Whites in stainless?

thanks,

RT

 

[balatonwine]

starting to look at small scale winery equipment options and flex tanks would work much better for my situation than barrels.

For white wine you can consider tanks made of PP (Polypropylene), HDPE (high density polyethylene -- eg Speidel tanks), SS (stainless steel), or glass carboys or demijohns.

For me, the PP and SS options are the only ones with variable capacities (lid with air sealing ring) less than 200 L.

 

[Bmd2k1]

I'm curious - Flextanks are made out of polyethylene - why wouldn't they be suitable for aging Whites -- but Reds and Ciders are ok? I currently use Speidels (HDPE) for my at home vino making endeavors and love the results.

Per FlexTank site --

Micro Oxygenation & Flavor Consistency Control​

Scientifically designed to assist in oxygen management, Flextank options include both heavyweight and lightweight maturation vessels which simulate the micro oxygenation process within both neutral and two-year-old oak barrels. The resulting hygienic environment makes “clean” tasting wines that preserved the flavors of the fruit with the a heightened ability to precisely control the flavor with Flextank’s high-quality oak adjuncts.

 

[balatonwine]

I'm curious - Flextanks are made out of polyethylene - why wouldn't they be suitable for aging Whites --

Because there are different ways to make plastics. Plastic chemistry. Some are dense, and some are porous. Flex tanks were designed to allow micro oxygenation like a barrel. Other tanks were designed to let less O2 move through them. All HDPE plastic.

HDPE has some fixed physical properties that can not be totally removed regarding O2 (it is never O2 impermeable like SS -- well HDPE can be if really thick... but that would get non-economically thick), but there is indeed some variability in how the plastic is made that can adjust within those limits.

 

[Bmd2k1]

Because there are different ways to make plastics. Plastic chemistry. Some are dense, and some are porous. Flex tanks were designed to allow micro oxygenation like a barrel. Other tanks were designed to let less O2 move through them. All HDPE plastic.

HDPE has some fixed physical properties that can not be totally removed regarding O2 (it is never O2 impermeable like SS -- well HDPE can be if really thick... but that would get non-economically thick), but there is indeed some variability in how the plastic is made that can adjust within those limits.

I understand ur point re differences in plastics -- but not why the FlexTanks supposedly aren't suitable to bulk age Whites -- but they are ok for bulk aging Reds. (These views per folks here....Not per FlexTank..as far as I'm currently aware.)

 

[Rice_Guy]

. . Plastic chemistry. . . . there is indeed some variability in how the plastic is made

* different polymers have different properties. Some are resistant to oils, some are resistant to water (polar molecules), some are resistant to oxygen, some are resistant to oxidizers, some work well with an impulse sealer, some are good substrates for atomized aluminum or silicates, etc etc. Many food containing containers are made up of multiple plastic layers so that different properties can be combined.
* @Bmd2k1 you are asking about oxygen permeability coefficient (cc of gas x mm thickness/square meter of test plastic x day x atmosphere pressure at 20C)
HDPE comes with oxygen transmission rating of 44-91, LDPE comes in at 98-138, PET as in plastic carboys is rated at less than 1, aluminuumized films are less than 1 (basically zero except for the pin holes), silicone as in stoppers is rated at 40,700. etc etc different polymers are good at different jobs
* the tank manufacturer should have an oxygen transmission specification on all equipment designs. As with metalized films the defects/ bubbles always cause some variation from tank to tank. Using natural oak wood there is variation in measured transmission from barrel to barrel too.

 

[balatonwine]

I understand ur point re differences in plastics -- but not why the FlexTanks supposedly aren't suitable to bulk age Whites -- but they are ok for bulk aging Reds. (These views per folks here....Not per FlexTank..as far as I'm currently aware.)

Because reds can tolerate and "expect" some O2 to make a red wine.

White wines expect a mostly O2 free environment. There are some exceptions (e.g. Chardonnay).

If you need more info, basically, it is due to the chemistry of how red versus white wines are made. Skin contact has an impact. Chemistry. Complicated. So a "white" "Amber" wine may be okay-ish in a FlexTank but not a white Pinot Gris or Riesling. Again.... Complicated. Basically is the "ART" of wine making.

 

[Rocktop]

Thank you all,
What make of variable capacity stainless 1000L tank is tops right now. I read some of the older threads but wondering if there is a current king of tanks?
Spiedal look very nice but spendy. There is no local suppliers so I would have to ship across Canada.

RT

 

[Nebbiolo020]

I am late to the party with responding, we use flex tanks at our winery and they work fine for both red and white wines and are more cost effective than stainless we looked at it and went $25,000 for a stainless but buying several flex tanks that added up the the same capacity was like $9000 so less than half and when they wear out cheaper to replace and financially makes more sense.

 

[Rocktop]

I am late to the party with responding, we use flex tanks at our winery and they work fine for both red and white wines and are more cost effective than stainless we looked at it and went $25,000 for a stainless but buying several flex tanks that added up the the same capacity was like $9000 so less than half and when they wear out cheaper to replace and financially makes more sense.

Very interesting, how long can you keep your whites in them before any impacts?
Do you use oak chips for your reds?

RT

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Very interesting, how long can you keep your whites in them before any impacts?
Do you use oak chips for your reds?

RT

Flex tanks let in as much air as a barrel would, they designed them that way so, for whites where you would either barrel age or ferment like Chardonnay you can leave it in as long as you would leave it in a regular barrel.

We use Oak Staves or Oak Cubes staves are preferred for quality, you can get nearly identical results to a barrel when you combine good staves with the oxygen that gets into a flex tank and it’s way cheaper.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

I will add that we are going to use flex tanks at the new winery because they are cost effective and we are trying to keep costs down so that we have money on hand for bills and incase things don’t go as planned. We looked into barrels and for the number of barrels we would need for 2023 was something like $45-50,000 and we decided that was not economical right now especially given that we would get 2-3 solid uses before they go neutral and would increase the asking price for our wines per bottle to a price I wasn’t comfortable with charging customers.

 

[Bmd2k1]

I will add that we are going to use flex tanks at the new winery because they are cost effective and we are trying to keep costs down so that we have money on hand for bills and incase things don’t go as planned. We looked into barrels and for the number of barrels we would need for 2023 was something like $45-50,000 and we decided that was not economical right now especially given that we would get 2-3 solid uses before they go neutral and would increase the asking price for our wines per bottle to a price I wasn’t comfortable with charging customers.

Any pics of your setup you'd be willing to share?

Cheers!

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Any pics of your setup you'd be willing to share?

Cheers!

No, because we are still finishing up the interior of the winery as this fall is the first year that we’re making wine at the new facility, so I don’t have any photos of it yet as we are still finishing up installing a bunch of stuff.

 

[Bmd2k1]

No, because we are still finishing up the interior of the winery as this fall is the first year that we’re making wine at the new facility, so I don’t have any photos of it yet as we are still finishing up installing a bunch of stuff.

Good luck getting everything up and running!