Common Terms

[winemaker81]

Can you completely Degas a wine through fermentation and get a somewhat successful wine without the use of a degassing machine?

Degassing was (AFAIK) introduced by kit vendors to clear the wine faster to enable 4 to 8 week bottling timeframes. Degassing is not necessary, as the wine will degas with time.

OTOH, I practice degassing to clear the wine faster, since CO2 holds particles in suspension. After fermentation is 100% complete, I use a drill-mounted stirring rod. The typical kit instructions are to stir for 30 seconds, then change directions 5 times, for a total of 3 minutes of stirring. You are NOT going to completely degas the wine doing this -- it jump starts the process to it completes quicker.

I stir for 20-30 seconds in each direction, changing direction 3 to 5 times. Since I do not bottle on kit schedule, my experience is that even a single stirring of 1 total minute is sufficient to jump start the process. With the CO2 mostly gone, the gross lees drops faster and can be removed sooner.

You can use a spoon or paddle to stir, but once you use a drill-mounted stirring rod, you won't want to use anything else. It is the best tool for mixing kits (or any must) and degasses the quickest.

On the subject of fermentation, is is a normal thing to stir the wine each day during fermentation?

Must should be stirred at least once daily during active fermentation. If you have fruit solids, the cap needs to be punched down at least once per day to keep it moist. If the must is just juice, stirring is still good. I try to stir morning and night.

I have put my fruit in a cloth bag to add to the primary during fermentation. Is it common to leave the fruit in suspension then strain later?

The fermentation process extracts constituents from the fruit solids. Especially with red grapes, long term exposure (full duration of the ferment) enables more extraction. For most wines, I'd leave the fruit in until the SG hits 1.000.

 

[Old Corker]

I was going to purchase 10 or 12 gallon Brutes, but my local home supply store didn't have any small ones last time I looked.

When I was looking for a 20 gallon Brute to use for double kit batches I search local restaurant supply stores and found one that was nearly the same price as the big box store. It also has the advantage of being white which I like. I found it in their products menu under waste management.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Degassing was (AFAIK) introduced by kit vendors to clear the wine faster to enable 4 to 8 week bottling timeframes. Degassing is not necessary, as the wine will degas with time.

OTOH, I practice degassing to clear the wine faster, since CO2 holds particles in suspension. After fermentation is 100% complete, I use a drill-mounted stirring rod. The typical kit instructions are to stir for 30 seconds, then change directions 5 times, for a total of 3 minutes of stirring. You are NOT going to completely degas the wine doing this -- it jump starts the process to it completes quicker.

I stir for 20-30 seconds in each direction, changing direction 3 to 5 times. Since I do not bottle on kit schedule, my experience is that even a single stirring of 1 total minute is sufficient to jump start the process. With the CO2 mostly gone, the gross lees drops faster and can be removed sooner.

You can use a spoon or paddle to stir, but once you use a drill-mounted stirring rod, you won't want to use anything else. It is the best tool for mixing kits (or any must) and degasses the quickest.


Must should be stirred at least once daily during active fermentation. If you have fruit solids, the cap needs to be punched down at least once per day to keep it moist. If the must is just juice, stirring is still good. I try to stir morning and night.


The fermentation process extracts constituents from the fruit solids. Especially with red grapes, long term exposure (full duration of the ferment) enables more extraction. For most wines, I'd leave the fruit in until the SG hits 1.000.

Thanks Old Corker for the feedback! So you Degas starting right after the fermentation is complete? On average how many times to you do this and how often, every few days?
Regarding the fruit in the primary; do you put your fruit in a bag, or leave loose in the primary?

 

[winemaker81]

So you Degas starting right after the fermentation is complete? On average how many times to you do this and how often, every few days?
Regarding the fruit in the primary; do you put your fruit in a bag, or leave loose in the primary?

Degassing is performed once. You are NOT removing all the CO2 -- just kick starting the process. Stirring will expel a lot of CO2, but the wine will continue to degas, possibly for weeks.

Fruit in a bag is easier to deal with. If the fruit is not tightly packed, you'll get the same extraction as loose. During fermentation there is a lot of movement due to the CO2, so the fruit is being exposed

 

[SeniorHobby]

Degassing is performed once. You are NOT removing all the CO2 -- just kick starting the process. Stirring will expel a lot of CO2, but the wine will continue to degas, possibly for weeks.

Fruit in a bag is easier to deal with. If the fruit is not tightly packed, you'll get the same extraction as loose. During fermentation there is a lot of movement due to the CO2, so the fruit is being exposed

Thanks again, so how many days after fermentation is complete that you do the degasing?
Can I run a wine in the works by you?

 

[Old Corker]

So you Degas starting right after the fermentation is complete?

Since I bought an All-In-One pump I don’t do the stirring to degas method. The vacuum pump degasses while it is transferring. I use to degas when the fermentation is done but don’t anymore for two reasons. First because I like to leave a little CO2 to protect the wine during early stages of clearing. Second, as I’ve learned recently, is what I think of as done fermenting may not be completely done. I usually do a final degassing after the wine is cleared and bulk aging. After racking I just remove the transfer hose, put my thumb over the the tube and run the pump for a minute or so to see if I can pull any more gas out. No bubbles/no gas in my mind.
I left the skins loose in the must once. Never again.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Since I bought an All-In-One pump I don’t do the stirring to degas method. The vacuum pump degasses while it is transferring. I use to degas when the fermentation is done but don’t anymore for two reasons. First because I like to leave a little CO2 to protect the wine during early stages of clearing. Second, as I’ve learned recently, is what I think of as done fermenting may not be completely done. I usually do a final degassing after the wine is cleared and bulk aging. After racking I just remove the transfer hose, put my thumb over the the tube and run the pump for a minute or so to see if I can pull any more gas out. No bubbles/no gas in my mind.
I left the skins loose in the must once. Never again.

Can I ask about the cost of the all in one pump? I do not have grapes on my property, beginner in the winemaking experience. Gonna try a few other fruits and take it from there. I am debating on planting some grape vines. I have access to some northern grapes (We're in the frozen Minnesota here) from a brother-in-law. Better get to it as I'm told that you have to wait a few years to establish the grape vines before using the grapes. Is there an opinion on if it is beneficial to plant grapes near evergreen trees? In the meantime I had access to extra grapes from two separate people this past fall, in the freezer at present. I am getting my feet wet by trying some wild grape wine making in the meantime. I am on day 9 of a batch. Started with sg of 1.09, now am at 1.036. I am still going down but it is slowing up and might be in for a stuck fermentation. Any advice at this point for me? Fermentation problems that I might be aware of, I might have been high on the sugar up front, added 8 lbs of sugar, started with 16 lbs of wild grapes. Original pH was 2,95, after adding sugar was 3.29. At this time it is at 3.49, I know I am getting close to being too high on this end. Must is sitting in a primary on my in-floor heated home, temp is at 72, again might be a little high for the ferment.
Merry Christmas by the way!!

 

[Old Corker]

@SeniorHobby I’m going to defer to the real experts on here to give you the advice you seek. While I like to comment on things that I know or have learned I am not an expert. I’ve only been doing this for about 4 years and only do kits (over 50 now). I am grateful to and humbled by the many generous experts here. I post if I think I have something helpful to say and sometimes the value of my comments is that they have a beginners perspective.

As for the All In One wine pump, Steve, the proprietor is a frequent poster on this site. His website in allinonewinepump.com

 

[winemaker81]

Thanks again, so how many days after fermentation is complete that you do the degasing?
Can I run a wine in the works by you?

I typically rack before fermentation is complete -- juice & kits when the SG is below 1.010, and press reds below 1.000. From there I watch the sediment -- it will build up, then compact a bit. I rack after it compacts, then degas. The timeframe varies, typically 7-14 days.

You can run anything past me, I'll answer is I can.

 

[SeniorHobby]

@SeniorHobby I’m going to defer to the real experts on here to give you the advice you seek. While I like to comment on things that I know or have learned I am not an expert. I’ve only been doing this for about 4 years and only do kits (over 50 now). I am grateful to and humbled by the many generous experts here. I post if I think I have something helpful to say and sometimes the value of my comments is that they have a beginners perspective.

As for the All In One wine pump, Steve, the proprietor is a frequent poster on this site. His website in allinonewinepump.com

I appreciate your honesty. There is so much to learn that sometimes I feel like I don't want to ask questions because of the volume of information that I don't know yet. Reading books helps, but as I am not the youngest person, retaining it is a challenge sometimes. I reread parts of books often. Blogs help to! I can refer back to them, especially if they have a problem that I've encountered!

 

[SeniorHobby]

I typically rack before fermentation is complete -- juice & kits when the SG is below 1.010, and press reds below 1.000. From there I watch the sediment -- it will build up, then compact a bit. I rack after it compacts, then degas. The timeframe varies, typically 7-14 days.

You can run anything past me, I'll answer is I can.

Thanks for the reply! What do you think about my slowing fermentation? It is still fermenting by not very fast. If you read some of my above statements, they give the details of where I started and where I am now. I don't think it will get to 1.01 at the rate its going. I have made mistakes, just wondering if I can recover from them?

 

[winemaker81]

There is so much to learn that sometimes I feel like I don't want to ask questions because of the volume of information that I don't know yet.

Don't be afraid to ask questions.

Wine is very forgiving IF you use good hygiene. For most things, time and patience are your friend.

Thanks for the reply! What do you think about my slowing fermentation? It is still fermenting by not very fast. If you read some of my above statements, they give the details of where I started and where I am now. I don't think it will get to 1.01 at the rate its going. I have made mistakes, just wondering if I can recover from them?

I re-read your comments in this thread and didn't spot any serious mistakes. Fermentation often slows down at the end -- while some run a steady pace to completion, others get to the finish line and creep across. If the wine is under airlock, it's fine if it takes weeks to complete.

I've had wines never ferment below 1.002. It can happen although I cannot explain why. Relax and let the yeast do it's thing as long as it's going to.

Do you talk to your wines? I do, very often. It's been very helpful, as my family believes me insane and leaves me alone.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Don't be afraid to ask questions.

Wine is very forgiving IF you use good hygiene. For most things, time and patience are your friend.


I re-read your comments in this thread and didn't spot any serious mistakes. Fermentation often slows down at the end -- while some run a steady pace to completion, others get to the finish line and creep across. If the wine is under airlock, it's fine if it takes weeks to complete.

I've had wines never ferment below 1.002. It can happen although I cannot explain why. Relax and let the yeast do it's thing as long as it's going to.

Do you talk to your wines? I do, very often. It's been very helpful, as my family believes me insane and leaves me alone.

Whew! Thanks for the encouragement! Regarding your commnent on the hygiene, I felt that I was doing things correctly in that regard, but I am reading another book which contradicts what a previous book said. I've used the one step for the cleaning process, then sulfite for the sanitation. I was always under the understanding that you do not rinse after the sanitation process. My current book says to rinse thoroughly with water. Uh Oh! Also my wine is in a large 6 gallon wine making bucket. I have been checking it daily and also giving it a stir to get the yeast going again. I should move it to an airlock container the way you are saying.
I have not talked to my wines yet, but will take it under advisement. I do lots of flowers during the summer and I do talk to them, but mostly its "you son of a gun are driving me crazy" HaHa

 

[winemaker81]

My current book says to rinse thoroughly with water.

Throw out the book. For winemaking, do not rinse after dousing with K-meta, just shake off the excess. The water is likely to contain organisms, so it's counter-productive.

I've seen such advice from beer makers, where sulfite is NOT added. Many on this forum make both wine and beer, and understand the differences. The lessons of one often do not apply to the other.

 

[SeniorHobby]

Throw out the book. For winemaking, do not rinse after dousing with K-meta, just shake off the excess. The water is likely to contain organisms, so it's counter-productive.

I've seen such advice from beer makers, where sulfite is NOT added. Many on this forum make both wine and beer, and understand the differences. The lessons of one often do not apply to the other.

I was thinking the same thing as we live out in the country with a well. I use filtered water when making wine as I believe it might clean up the water a bit. Thanks for the help again! Living in the cold north! I have wanted to upload photo's and I get the message that the file is too large. I'm told that there is a button to decrease the size of the photo, but haven't found it yet. Any ideas?

 

[winemaker81]

For manipulating images, there are numerous choices. I use paint.NET to manipulate images -- it's a free download. The application is full featured, although I use less than 5% of the functionality, to trim images, resize them, add layers, etc.

If you just want to reduce image file size, try TinyPNG -- drag images onto the page and it will reduce size, and you can download the downsized image. The site is free for occasional use (20 images/day, max 5 MB file size), but I pay $25 USD for an annual pro license as I use the service often.

EDIT: Forgot to add the URL

https://tinypng.com

 

[SeniorHobby]

I was thinking the same thing as we live out in the country with a well. I use filtered water when making wine as I believe it might clean up the water a bit. Thanks for the help again! Living in the cold north! I have wanted to upload photo's and I get the message that the file is too large. I'm told that there is a button to decrease the size of the photo, but haven't found it yet. Any ideas?

 

[SeniorHobby]

Working on a. download, they are sending a link? Weird. I am sanitizing my carboy to put the wine in from the bucket. Do you rinse your carboy with sulfite for 10 minutes?

 

[winemaker81]

Do you rinse your carboy with sulfite for 10 minutes?

From what I've read, K-meta water does not sanitize, it's the SO2 vapor. I usually rinse everything with K-meta and then by the time I've completed all preparations, the equipment has set for 5 to 15 minutes, so I proceed.

 

[SeniorHobby]

From what I've read, K-meta water does not sanitize, it's the SO2 vapor. I usually rinse everything with K-meta and then by the time I've completed all preparations, the equipment has set for 5 to 15 minutes, so I proceed.

From Techniques in Home Wine Making it says Potassium & sodium metabisulfite are the most widely used & most effective sanitizing agents for winemaking applications. I can't shake a glass carboy for 10 minutes, I am going to rinse, walk away, come back rinse again. I think this should work too.