Dealing with sediment from pressing whites

[photoactivist]

Since when does presenting a variety of methods become drawing lines in the sand ?

As long as its respectful , debate is what forums do best .
Ideally a mix of experience and easily referenced resources come to the fore and we all learn from it .

Universities used to teach this to freshmen.

Sharing alternate experience and views is valid and should be encouraged , or why have a forum?

I suppose it depends on what one means by "drawing lines in the sand"...
I never said sharing alternate experience and views shouldn't be encouraged. In fact, one of the things my step-father never understood is how my mother and I could share a disputation for hours.

So, what, pray tell, do universities teach to their freshmen nowadays, master Yoda? Aside from the concept that college is more about pushing over priced books...

 

[JohnT]

Fair enough we all have our ways And preferences. I would throw my lot in with the likes of Shea Comfort and Daniel Pambianachi .

99 percent of white wines are made by crushing and stemming first , so it would be unfair to make a blanket statement that crushing and stemming automatically makes a bitter wine. We use a basic electric crusher destemmer and let sit on the skins for a couple hours , no bitterness , several gold medals .

I've never seen a basket press that could do whole clusters without leaving a large portion of them unpressed.

A long slow pressing over hours would introduce an oxidization risk . You might be fine but it would make me nervous

I have a hydralic basket press (picture below). This does not seem to have any problem pressing out whole clusters..

As far as oxidation, this does not happen over just a couple of hours and there is a benefit to having O2 exposure prior to fermentation. I have yet to have a single white wine oxidize on me.

I also think you would be shocked by how many pro wineries press wole clusters. In fact, I was put on to this technique after a conversation I had with the head winemaker at unionville winery, Cameron Stark (Educated at UC Davis and has received several 90+ ratings from Wine Enthusiast mag).

Much like you, I have won many medals and awards (Indy, AWS, Winemaker Mag, etc). I even won a "winemaker of the year" title (and the trip to Napa that came with it - see my avatar) in 2010. All outward validation aside, it truly does come down to personal taste and preferences.

I never meant to imply that all crushed/destemmed wines are automatically bitter, I am just saying that I found whole cluster pressings less bitter, more crisp and clean in taste. In short, I like fewer tannins in my whites. Please do not take this personal, it is simply a matter of taste.

I would still encourage the experimenters out there to give it a try. If it does not work for you, you could always run them through the destemmer afterwords.

 

[manvsvine]

Nice press !

When I said basket press I ment a standard manually actuated one , Which is the most commonly used by homies . Not a hydraulic one .
I guess the point is unless you have something more powerfull , like a bladder (which also uses a basket) , hydraulic or screw press , whole cluster is next to impossible using a ratchet type basket press.

Nothing taken personal , there are many ways to skin a cat .

 

[spaniel]

P.S.- if you're willing to share, I'd still be interested in hearing more details of your white treatment, Spaniel. I just about finished two batches of alcoholic fermentation of Riesling, and used separate yeast strains, hoping to produce different responses from the same vineyard grapes. I had quite a bit of sediment, as well. I let one carboy settle before racking, and the other I left a bit cloudy. The first should be a clean and fresh Riesling, while the other will produce an earthy, rich wine.

-Pick
-Crush
-Load in press, collect free run and set aside
-Press, collect in second container
-Optionally, after gunk has settled a bit, scoop clearer juice and separate that again as a separate batch
-Add sulfate and get juice in glass
-Put at 60F for ~24hrs
-Take Brix, rack onto sugar + yeast energizer
-Record pH/TA but where I live I've yet to ADD acid
-Pitch yeast
-Maintain fermentation as close to 55-60F range as possible
-Ferment to dry (~2-3 weeks)
-Rack after max clearing reached
-Cold stabilize ~1 month
-Bentonite if necessary (it typically takes some)
-Check pH/TA; last year was first with this equipment and no adjustments were necessary
-Rack, add sorbate
- ~48hrs later back-sweeten to taste
-Let sit until I feel like bottling, rack of any fine sediment (very little by then)

Last year I used my ancient kegerator for cooling, it is finicky but I can get it to stick in the 60-65F range. This year due to much higher yield I bought a used fridge off Craigslist for $50. Given record temps I am glad I did but it is impossible to get it to stay in range. I check it twice a day, it has ranged as high as 72F and as low as 45F. Last night it was 96F out, so as fermentation was still going at 45F I just left it as if I was not careful I would end up at 80F before I could check it again! Next year I'm getting a temp controller as discussed on here.

To JohnT's point about whole cluster being crisper, I do not doubt it. It is just not something I can do with my equipment.

As a biochemist I am prone to experiment. Last year I was really rushed with my harvest/crush. I saved the free run, then pressed and saved that. I realized that I'd crushed so fast and it was after dark and I'd missed a lot of grapes. So I re-crushed and pressed again for another smaller batch! Everything else was kept EXACTLY the same; at the end, chemistry was identical (pH/TA/SG). I send in the pressed and got a bronze with that. The twice pressed was perfectly drinkable but not something I would enter in a contest or give away. The free run was crisper and I likely would have gotten one medal higher with that, as that was the weakness of the pressed batch in judging.

IMHO the "light crush" I did last year where I missed a lot...and doing it with feet...was probably a rough corollary to whole bunch pressing. This year I did a better job crushing and took my time and the ratio of free runressed juice went from 50:50 to 80:20.

 

[Deezil]

I dont know how I'm so "late to the party", but..

The waiting a couple hours between crushing and pressing is done to improve aromatics and returns .

....

It's very commonly done especialy with varieties like Pinot Gris , Gewurtztraminer and reisling where varietal character is wanted. But you can't let it macerate too long , 4 hours is common 12 would be the extream .

Then you press , let settle off the pulp sediment 6 to 24 hours , once . This is called clarifying the must. Page 15 of the more wine manual

Quote "Removing these solids is highly recommended because doing so dramatically lowers the production of heavy, harsh, green/herbaceous, and sharp notes from potentially developing in our white wines during the fermentation. When the solids are removed we get cleaner, more aromatic and fruity wines. Quite simply: a clean juice makes a clean wine"

If you buy white juice from companies like brehm this has already been done for you .

Then you pitch yeast and proceed with your ferment without further delay .

So2 at crush is critical in this process. 50ppm .
And your fruit must be in great shape.

We crush and stem , sulfite , let sit on the skins for a couple hours then press . You can use enzymes which help settling and aromatics , use a specific white wine product.

http://morewinemaking.com/products/lallzyme-cuvee-blanc.html

Let settle for 24 hours in a cool spot . Then rack off the pulp sediment .

Then ferment the settled juice .

Your losses are about average , 24 hours settling will help.

This is basically my exact process, the same enzyme, and the reasoning for how my 2012 Riesling Escapade went down; took me ~18 hours to destem and hand crush ~150lbs of Riesling grapes.. So the first ones that were crushed, sat for past the 'extreme' while a majority were in the 'extreme' to 'common' range

 

[spaniel]

took me ~18 hours to destem and hand crush ~150lbs of Riesling grapes.. )

Yeah...I would love to destem before I crush...but until I can pop $500 for a stemmer/crusher, with 3 young kids that kind of dedication is not happening!! There is ideal then there is realistic (for me)!