WineXpert Degassing troubles

[mbraucht]

I've done a search on this already, but thought I would try and get an answer on my specific situation.


Kit: Amarone, Selection International


Preamble... I purchased two kits for my first go at this (other kit is a Shiraz). Both kits seem to go quickly... felt like I was chasing the gravity most of the time. However, I always made sure the gravity was at or below before moving on to the next step, as the instructions say.


On the Amarone, especially on the 2nd step - Secondary Fermentation, it started to get wierd for me.
The instructions said to rack to carboy when the gravity was at or below 1.010 (after 5-7 days after adding the sugar in step 1). In 4 days, the gravity went from 1.024 to 1.000, so decided to go ahead and get to step 2 and rack to the carboy. However, the gravity was already at the step 3 level. So, I left it for 3 days and checked the gravity again - 1.000. To be safe, I made sure it was stable and checked a day later and - 1.000. So decided to go ahead and add my fining agents - Step 3.


All went well... just like my Shiraz kit. However, I am having trouble degassing. I stirred vigorously for at least 30-45 min... but the foam wouldn't stop coming. I decided to top up the carboy with a little extra space at the top for stiring and I would try again the following day (today). Still... stirred for another 20 min and the bubbles still seem to come. Fermentation has seems to stop (there is no sign of the valve popping anymore).


Also,my ambient temps are 21.5c - 23c (instructions say between 18-24 is best).


Suggestions?
Should I rack this back to the primary today and stir the bubbles out of it and then rack it back into the carboy? Do I just keep stirring in the carboy each day until I don't see signs of bubbles anymore? Do I just leave it?


Sorry... didn't mean to make my first post so long. It's probably a simple solution. Thanks for the read.

 

[grapeman]

What are you stirring with? If you are using a drill, you are probably just spinning it too fast and you are just seeing the bubbles you are creating with a vortex. Slow it down and try again.


Welcome to the forum.

 

[ASAI]

I ha a simialr sounding situation the first time I tried to learn how to degas. I finally figured out I was creating a mini whirpool as I stired the wine sucking air in and that was where the bubbles were coming from each time I stirred. Now I wait a few minutes to see if the bubbles are in a sperts after stirring or keep coming. After listening here, I decided to do a descent job with stirring, the use a Brake Bleeder for a few days to strip the co2 out.

 

[mbraucht]

Thanks for the replies. I am using a stir spoon I bought from the vendor. It's your typical looking spoon with one end small enough to fit into the carboy.

I am aware of the possibility of simply sucking air into the vortex... but I don't use that method. I stir vigorously in one direction enough to get the wine spinning, then quickly change direction so there is no vortex... just a stirring of the wine.


Im pretty sure this isn't the issue.

 

[Goodfella]

Yeah... The vacu-vin or brake bleeder is my suggestion. That teqnique is worth its weight in gold.

 

[grapeman]

If you are using the armstong method of degassing like you are, be prepared for a long extended procedure and likely some residual gas in the end. Either get a stirring rod for a drill or a vacuum degasser, or both- otherwise expect to look like Popeye on at least one side.

 

[Bert]

I would like to add to the above posts that your wine temps. [around 24C.] will help make degassing a lot easier...Good Luck....Nice wines by the way..

 

[joeswine]

you know what i discovered is by using a variable speed drill,and using only a slow speed more gas is despised also you should try reversing the operation first clock wise then counterclock wise is cause more agitation and better gas movement ,,try it..........

 

[mbraucht]

Yes, this is what I have been doing to avoid causing the foam -
My method, as I described above I think is best for manually stirring. I stir one way to get the wine moving in one direction and then immediately begin stiring in the opposite direction until it begins moving in the opposit direction.


This keeps a vortex not to form and there is little to no sloshing going on... only good agitation in the wine.


As it goes - I talked to the vendor and he recommended that I have stirred enough at this point and to simply let the kit do its work over the next 2 weeks. I will draw a sample then and see how well it has cleared. If it hasn't, he says just to give it more time. He also mentioned that I might choose to rack it before bottling.


I think if it has completely cleared in two weeks, I will rack it to a fresh carboy and let it sit another week or two.


I'll update this post to help any others who search and find this thread.

 

[Pablo]

I bought the brake bleeder from Harbor Freight. Works nicely. My arms get a workout.

 

[RickC]

I highly recommend either a brake bleeder or a vacuum pump after stirring with the drill mounted device. The first few kits I made I tried like crazy to degas with only the drill mounted device and still didn't seem to get degassed properly. CO2 still in the wine can give some off flavors.

 

[Dean]

Ambient temps may not be the same as the liquid temps. I aim for a liquid temp of 25 to 28C. It makes degassing very easy, even with a manual spoon. First, I rack into my primary as it is MUCH easier to stir out gas that way. Then, I use a back and forth motion, as if I was Zorro carving my Z everywhere in the wine. Do this for 10 full minutes, never stopping. It should feel like your arm is about to fall off. Switch arms, and do this again for another 10 minutes. Time it...10 minutes is a loooooong time! Rack back to glass, and top up.

If using a drill mounted device, cut the times to 3 full minutes each time. The real key is the higher liquid temperature. Use a brew belt or heating pad to get the liquid up to temperature.

 

[Wade E]

I agree with the above posts. At minimum get the drill mounted Fizz X and make your life easier as almost everyone complains later when they pop open a bottle that they did not degas their wine enough!

 

[Runningwolf]

Dean, I like that idea but are you getting too much oxygen it it doing it in the primary?

 

[Wade E]

Not really if its loaded with C02!

 

[gaudet]

Another thing about the CO2. If you snap your lid down and use an airlock while the wine is in primary, it seems to get more CO2 retention. I would assume that the physical back pressure of the airlock would cause more CO2 to go into solution. The brake bleeder worked great for me, then the aspirator pump. 20 minutes and done. If the aspirator pump is too much $$$ then there is another solution. The ziplock vacuum bag pump. I think Waldo has a post on how to use that.

 

[v1rotate]

mbraucht- welcome. There is a brew-on-premises here in Austin where they degas using a spoon in plastic better-bottles. They use a back and forth motion and degas over 3 to 4 days. They also filter all of their wines, so that may be helping them get good results. I don't filter. They spray inert gas into the carboys at night during the 3 to 4 days of degassing, but I'm not convinced that is necessary as the CO2 will protect the wine from oxidation.

I would like to recommend that you slow down your steps. I believe the instructions say to wait 5 to 7 days in primary, then check the SG. In secondary "after 10 days" check the SG and wait another day to verify it is stable. These timeframes are important for more than just the yeast eating up the sugars. There are other biochemical processes taking place. Don't rush through winemaking. I recommend that you read this article by Tim Vandergrift of Winexpert:

<a href="http://www.winemakermag.com/component/content/article/26/850" target="_blank">Making Your
Kit Wine Shine, Redeaux</a>.

It appears that the timeframes suggested in the instructions are the minimum times, not the optimum times. I suppose this is so that they can market their kits as 5 and 6 week kits.

Take your time with degassing. I feel it is extremely important to get your wine completely degassed!

 

[Dean]

Dean, I like that idea but are you getting too much oxygen it it doing it in the primary?

No, not at all if you are releasing CO2. The key is not to create a full on vortex, where you whip more air in the wine with the drill. I use short bursts forward, then reverse. They key is to get the cavitation going. You know the part when you see a ship or submarine turn the screws on, and even though it is underwater, you see bubbles around the prop? Same idea. Fast shearing moments in the liquid release gas. Forward and reverse make this happen.

It's also why a spoon moved in the zorro manner works well too.

 

[mbraucht]

So... been a few weeks and still see signs of gas (can taste the bubbles). I went ahead and got one of those vacuum things (you'll see the same model used in a youtube video)... it's a little 'food-saver' type vacuum that connects right up to the bung.


Anyway... did a few sessions of that and started noticing that the sediment from the bottom began to rise all the way to the top - and seemed to be a lot of bubbles comming from that. Noticing what I was doing, I immediately stopped and let things settle down for a few days.


I reracked everything yesterday into fresh carboys, and tried to leave the majority of sediment behind - but I might have already screwed everything up AND NEED HELP.


My wine was clear before (before the degassing attempt with the vacuum). It is not clear anymore - I obviously suspended some of the sediment again, and think i sucked some of it up too when transferring to the new carboy.


1. Is the sediment going to sink again?
2. Do I need to add more fining agent? What do I use?
3. Did I ruin my wine?


It would be sad... by taste, my two batches are already showing so much potential.



For reference, I am having the same above issue with both, but the Shiraz has given me the most bubbles and trouble so far.

 

[gaudet]

You did not mess anything up. You could have continued to degas your
wine. Even if it clouded up you would be able to rack it again off the
sediment. The CO2 sometimes keeps your wine from clearing. The
re-suspended sediment will not hurt your wine.

You don't need
fining agent. Just wait a week or two to see what happens before you
worry about fining it. Time and gravity will take care of that for you.

No you did not ruin your wine by trying to degas it and re suspending the particles



The particles were put back in solution by the rising of the CO2 gas
out of solution. With the CO2 gone it will fall back to the bottom.



Relax, don't worry. I think you are good to go. After doing this for
almost two years now, I have come to realize that if you are patient
(and yes I had to learn that too) and use good sanitary processes, then
you will have little to worry about.