Did I make Cider... or Vinegar ?

[Bramble]

Wow how embarrasing to have to ask this question!
I have only had a commercial cider a couple of times, and a 5L batch I made myself; both sort of similar, rather acetic, and funky, but ok, if that is what cider tastes like.
Well, I thought I'd have another go at it.
I up the batch to 20 L. and improved the mix of apples.

The SG is 1.050 @ 26.3C and while I will have to check what my OG was, I am guessing this might be a stuck fermentation.
I will check the pH tonight, but it is certainly sour.

Humm, Do you know the sweetened vinegar drinks that were common and popular and in some places maybe still are (?)
That is what it tastes like to me.
Maybe better than some of the very few ciders I have had, actually.

So this is my problem... it tastes good, (diluted or drank in sips) but is it vinegar? or Cider?
I have read that there are acetic tasting ciders, say from Spain perhaps.

So...
Should I
Restart the fermentation?
Bottle it as vinegar?
Enjoy it as a cider?

How can I tell definitively if it is Cider or Vinegar?

 

[Rice_Guy]

Two assumptions on your post, you had this under an air lock and this is a fresh ferment as one week. . . . . It is likely to be “normal” cider.
Eating apples are selected to have high levels of sugar and acid, the acid note is likely to be the full impact of malic acid without the counterbalance of sugar. Traditional cider apples are a blend of “flat” flavor low acid apple and bitters and sweets. . . If it is vinegar (acetic acid) it will be volatle at room temp and if you heat some as in the microwave the acid smell will fill the room. A fresh ferment also has CO2 but this will be more of a bitter/ less aromatic flavor.
A vinegar fermentation takes some time and goes along with exposure to air.

As a confirmation, if you add sugar to the cider from the microwave the balanced sweet should come back, (microwave and stirring will drive CO2 off)

 

[Bramble]

No on the assumptions...
I open ferment, but under a closed opening (that allows CO2 egress),
so (presumably) stored under a blanket of CO2....
for months and months.

I checked the pH
it was 2.3 @27.6C
I will try the microwave test.
(I should mention I do have lacto and brett in house - but I use seperate equipment,
so I don't think it is a contamination issue.)

What is a normal cider pH?
Would calcium carbonate work well to adjust it?

 

[Rice_Guy]

Normal, can’t give a US idea.
A microbiology article from Europe finds cider micro stability below pH 3.0, good, , stability combined with SO2 if the pH is 3.0 to 3.8 also works, , and the need to improve pH if above 3.8.
All of the crabs and new crop apple cider (early September) I have looked have been 3.1 to 3.3. If I get storage apples late October or November I will get 3.8 or 4.? ,,, so pH depends on variety and how mature the blend was when you started.

If your ferment had a month you could be dealing with vinegar, closed opening sounds like a hose in a pail of water? ,,,, process contamination as by using the same cylinder for gravity is easy,

 

[KCCam]

closed opening sounds like a hose in a pail of water?

Or is it simply a towel over a bucket?
“Months and months” in a primary without an air lock? After that time the pH is 2.3 & SG is 1.050? Are you sure it’s not 1.005? Does it taste sweet AND sour? 1.050 suggests there’s still lots of sugar. In any case, I would say fermentation stopped months ago, and there would be absolutely no CO2 “blanket”. How big it’s the headspace? More detail on the “closure” might help too.

 

[Bramble]

The fermentor was a food grade 5 Gal /20 L LME bucket;
there was about 4L space above the cider
and the top was the dedicated gasketed lid,
which was well seated but not pressed firmly into the locked position.

The idea was to allow excess CO2 to escape, but to hold in the heavier CO2;
Of course, brownian motion whatever might have displaced the CO2 over the 8 months it has been aging.

I have no idea how long it really takes to uncover a blanket of CO2 like this, I wonder if there is any data

Yes. 1.050
it really is like a switchel or shrub (?) and is sweet and sour. I get the feeling I could make it more cidery by tweaking things, but don't really have enough experience with ciders (or switchels or shrubs for that matter!) to be sure.

It tastes pretty good though, what ever it is.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Your guess about stuck sounds correct, yeast do not like pH below about 2.9. high sugar is also a stressor. Have you found your original gravity yet? I have puzzled at how to accurately stop a fermentation at 1.005 or 1.008, this is interesting.
All in all wine is hedonic, if it tastes good you are a winner. A warning though you have opened the batch which adds oxygen to the mix. Oxidized alcohol is acetaldehyde which for me gives a unpleasant burn sensation in the back of the throat.

 

[sour_grapes]

The idea was to allow excess CO2 to escape, but to hold in the heavier CO2;
Of course, brownian motion whatever might have displaced the CO2 over the 8 months it has been aging.

I have no idea how long it really takes to uncover a blanket of CO2 like this, I wonder if there is any data

Yes, the diffusion rates are well studied. With no barriers, it takes about 2 to 4 minutes for gases to mix. Seriously.

Your arrangement may have slowed the process down by a bit, so maybe you had a few hours or even a day or two of protection.

 

[Bramble]

Wow, that fast!

Humm, at first I was phased, but since the problem I have doesn't seem to be one of oxidation, I guess I am OK.
The problem seems to be an early period of excessivly low pH bringing on a stopped fermentation. Why so much acetic acid should be present is still unclear, (microwave heating did reveal acetic aromas near the microwave).

I will dig up the OG tonight.

 

[Bramble]

Note to self:
Try to keep better notes and resist taking shortcuts
as that often clouds clarity down the line in the future.

OG was likely 14.2 Brix
Initaly, the fermentor was too small to hold the full volume, so
the fermenmtor size was upped, and volume adjusted later, mid process

 

[Johnd]

Note to self:
Try to keep better notes and resist taking shortcuts
as that often clouds clarity down the line in the future.

Hmmmmm, I wonder if this “Note to self” is good enough....................LOL

 

[Bramble]

Probably not. Seems I never listen to myself.
I have a rule, never put any yeast in the fridge unless it is has a lable on it.
Threw away 7 more today.

 

[Rice_Guy]

It is also fun to taste a gallon sitting next to several carboys and ask “which batch is this?” but then I bottle at a vinters club meeting without a name adds a sense of mystery.

I have a rule, never put any yeast in the fridge unless it is has a lable on it. . Threw away 7 more

 

[KCCam]

So many questions, but assuming you are using the term "acetic" correctly, none of them really matter. "Acetic" means "like vinegar" or "like acetic acid". "Acidic" means low pH, or sour. Lemon juice is acidic, but not acetic. You heated a sample of your must and you say it smelled "acedic." If that means it smelled like vinegar, then it certainly contains acetic acid, the active ingredient in vinegar. It would also explain the very low pH (vinegar is about 2.5). Did you check the original pH? How do you test pH? (Strips or digital meter?)

Did you add sugar after your original gravity reading of 14.2° Brix? Did you see signs of fermentation? Because 14.2° Brix is equivalent to 1.058 SG. The tiny drop to 1.050 SG means you would have, at most 1% alcohol, and I would suspect the drop might simply be due to solids settling to the bottom. You said "volume adjusted later, mid process." If you mean you added water, that would account for the drop too, meaning there is possibly no alcohol.

You "improved the mix of apples" for this batch, implying that you juice your own apples, correct? You have unlabeled yeast in your fridge, implying you buy it in bulk, and store unused portions in your fridge, correct? You put apple juice and yeast in a primary fermenter with a lid just resting on top, and left it for 8 months. Did you ever check on it? Did you do anything else with it during that time?

 

[Bramble]

It smelled "acetic."
But some ciders contain acetic acid and that's ok, so....
I think it certainly contains acetic acid... but is it still cider ?
(or, can I dilute it back to being cbider?)

What is the difference between apple cider and apple vinegar... What is the borderline?

Did you check the original pH? How do you test pH? (Strips or digital meter?)
Digital meter

Did you add sugar after your original gravity reading of 14.2°
No, it was 14.2 after sugaring the apple derrived 5.3 Brix
There was some fermentation before sugaring,
so thee real OG, had it been measured properly, would have been a bit higher.

"... meaning there is possibly no alcohol."
That is a good point,
there doesn't seem to be much alcohol, thus it would be more "vinegar" than "cider"

I juice my own apples, correct.
This time I did use a large number of crab apples, and that probably contributed to an early low pH

You have unlabeled yeast in your fridge,
implying you buy it in bulk, and store unused portions in your fridge, correct?

No, I have a yeast bank. I normally grow them up from slants, however, after a fermentation, if I am brewing soon, I may reuse or use a top crop for the next go. so either a top crop or the bottoms may get stored in hopes of future use; or similarly, a later pH or Brix check, depeding upon what was made (wine, beer, cider or perhaps soda)

I put apple pulp/juice and yeast in a primary fermenter
later separated the pulp (pommace?) then added more sugar and water in a larger fermentor
(being new to cider making, I underestimated the fermentor size I would need for the amount of apples I was going to use.)

The lid was closed well enough to block fruit flies, but not CO2

Did you ever check on it?
no

Did you do anything else with it during that time?
no