Discouraged--Need Advice Please

[DAB]

My Zin from last year has been aging in carboys. My plan has been to let it age hoping it would improve...it hasn't. My new plan is to put it into my brand new 13.2 gal Hungarian Oak barrel to help give it some depth. Today I tested it and it's still very unimpressive. Lacks depth, flavor and personality. Any constructive suggestions would be most appreciated...I'm sure I'll get some grief for some of my processes, however, I did the best I knew how at the time--I've learned I few things along the way with much more to learn to be sure. Thinking of adding both Tannins and Tartaric acid additions to give it some personality. Below is my wine log since the beginning:

9-22-18
Lodi Zinfandel grapes 7 lugs—Approximately 260lbs–total $285.00
Juicy and in mostly good shape.

9/22/18
Crushed about 21-25 gallons of must at 72 degrees.
Measured SO2 was 2.2…NO SO2 additions
Brix 21
PH 3.64
TA .675

I used my oxygen wand to prepare the must with O2 for the yeast.
Added 30 Grams of Firmaid-K + 30 grams Go-Firm + 24 grams RC212 yeast
The 30 Grams of Firmaid-K was a mistake—I thought it was Go-Firm.

September 23rd
13 hours later I have vigorous fermentation. A cap.

Sept 29th
Hydrometer readings in both were 1.000

Sept 30th
Pressed. Yielded 17.5 gallons total (15/2.5)

Oct 1st
Added 17 grams Acti-ML with 1/3 packet of Viniflora Oenos (1 package good for 66 gal) to the 15 Gallon batch and a equivalent portion (+/- 2.5 games and a little pinch of Viniflora Oenos) to the 2.5-gallon batch.

Nov 12th
Re-racked the 15 gallons

Nov 23th
Re-racked the 2.5 gallons

December 10th
Discovered a white film on top of a 3-gallon carboy. Some covering the 15-gallon fermenter too—about 30% covered.



Free SO2 in 15-gallon fermenter was 4…so I deduced it was also low in the 3 gallon carboy. Re-racked 3-gallon and skimmed what I could off the top of the 15-gallon. Added one Camden tablet to the 3-gallon carboy and 4 Camden tablets to the 15-gallon fermenter via crushed and mixed with a bit of tap water. Then a day later re-racked the half-filled 3 gallon carboy into 2 one gallon carboys poured rest into 15 gallon fermenter then re-racked that into 3 five gallon carboys.

Added three each “WineStix - Medium Plus Toast French Oak Carboy” to each of the 5-gallon carboys.

April 28, 2019
PH 3.98
SO2 45 ppm…did not add anything.

July 20, 2019
No evidence of Flowers of Wine in any of the carboys. Taste is better, but still thin.

Oct 20th, 2019
TA 5.65
PH 3.97
Tastes very thin, no personality or depth! Not happy with this wine.

What to do...what to do.

 

[Stressbaby]

1. Have you added sulfite since April 28?
2. Any other sulfite additions not listed?
3. Did you test for MLF completion?
4. Did you get rid of all that head space?

By my estimation, you are under-sulfited. Winemakermag sulfite calculator says this wine needs 53ppm. I'm surprised you are actually as high as 45ppm in April after that December 10th Campden tablet addition, because that number of Campden tablets looks way too low. Normally it's 1 tablet/gallon. And with a BRW, they recommend a 100% SO2 adjustment up until you've added 50ppm. IMHO, this is putting you at risk for oxidation and contamination.

Pending answers to above, I would hit this wine with a healthy dose of sulfite, 1/4tsp per 6 gallons or equivalent; consider bench trialing tartaric acid additions.

 

[DAB]

1. Have you added sulfite since April 28?
2. Any other sulfite additions not listed?
3. Did you test for MLF completion?
4. Did you get rid of all that head space?

By my estimation, you are under-sulfited. Winemakermag sulfite calculator says this wine needs 53ppm. I'm surprised you are actually as high as 45ppm in April after that December 10th Campden tablet addition, because that number of Campden tablets looks way too low. Normally it's 1 tablet/gallon. And with a BRW, they recommend a 100% SO2 adjustment up until you've added 50ppm. IMHO, this is putting you at risk for oxidation and contamination.

Pending answers to above, I would hit this wine with a healthy dose of sulfite, 1/4tsp per 6 gallons or equivalent; consider bench trialing tartaric acid additions.

No additional Sulfites added since.
Actually, testing for MLF completion at the moment, along with another wine, will know in the morning--stby, will report.
Yes, all head space has been eliminated.

While I understand your point about the wine being vulnerable to spoilage, and I agree, the additions of SO2 won't improve/change the taste/flavor in any appreciable way? Also, I'll add the SO2 tomorrow for sure! My concerns are the TA and PH levels being a bit off. A TA of 5.65 is too low, and a PH of 3.97 seems high, so I don't know what to do as I've tried, the best I can, to use best practices (less the head space mistake) all along the way to create, at a minimum, at least a $10 bottle of wine--which it's not. Thank you very much for your input, I'll post the yes/no, is MLF complete tomorrow morning. I must admit, I'm feeling frustrated...maybe this hobby is bigger than me.

 

[Stressbaby]

No additional Sulfites added since.
Actually, testing for MLF completion at the moment, along with another wine, will know in the morning--stby, will report.
Yes, all head space has been eliminated.

While I understand your point about the wine being vulnerable to spoilage, and I agree, the additions of SO2 won't improve/change the taste/flavor in any appreciable way? Also, I'll add the SO2 tomorrow for sure! My concerns are the TA and PH levels being a bit off. A TA of 5.65 is too low, and a PH of 3.97 seems high, so I don't know what to do as I've tried, the best I can, to use best practices (less the head space mistake) all along the way to create, at a minimum, at least a $10 bottle of wine--which it's not. Thank you very much for your input, I'll post the yes/no, is MLF complete tomorrow morning. I must admit, I'm feeling frustrated...maybe this hobby is bigger than me.

While the addition of SO2 won't help it taste better, the absence of SO2 could mean it is oxidized and that may be why it doesn't taste good. A picture of a glass of the wine on a white backdrop might help. If oxidized, you might try the evaporated skim milk trick, or try PVPP/Polyclar, both are supposed to help with browning. My limited experience with both techniques tells me they might help but won't work miracles. If it were me, I'd get the SO2 up TODAY - aim for 53ppm. Some of that SO2 will get bound, so we're talking at least 1 Campden tablet per gallon - I'd go with 1.5 tablets/gallon. The calculator (using 100% adjustment) actually suggests 1.75 tablets/gallon but not sure you need to adjust the entire amount.

I'm going to guess MLF is complete based on time and lack of SO2. If not, I'd treat with lysozyme and forget about restarting MLF.

I'm not sure I'd waste a new barrel on this wine just yet. You can oak with other methods. Other additives may help - bench trial tartaric acid, I think you'll be surprised at how that will help. There are grape skin extracts which can help the color. Finishing tannins might help as well.

Another possible issue here is too long on the gross lees. You don't report any off-odors but it looks to me as if you pressed 9/30 but didn't rack again for 6-7 weeks.

FWIW, next time I would consider this approach:

• Coinnoculate your MLB
• After pressing, wait 2-3 days and rack once, getting the wine off the gross lees. Eliminate all the headspace at this point.
• Monitor for MLF completion; once MLF tests complete, wait a couple of weeks to be sure, then use the winemakermag sulfite calculator to properly dose the sulfite. Likely this batch needed a good dose of sulfite back in November-December time frame
• Keep the sulfite levels up while barreling/aging/oaking

I've made Zin a couple of times from CA grapes shipped here to Missouri. Both times was disappointed in the lack of color compared to CA-made Zins. The second time did better with a longer cold soak, a bit of extended maceration, and rotating the wine through a neutral barrel.

That's just my 2 cents, but as you know there are many ways to skin a cat.

 

[Chuck E]

No additional Sulfites added since.
While I understand your point about the wine being vulnerable to spoilage, and I agree, the additions of SO2 won't improve/change the taste/flavor in any appreciable way? Also, I'll add the SO2 tomorrow for sure! My concerns are the TA and PH levels being a bit off. A TA of 5.65 is too low, and a PH of 3.97 seems high, so I don't know what to do as I've tried, the best I can, to use best practices (less the head space mistake) all along the way to create, at a minimum, at least a $10 bottle of wine--which it's not. Thank you very much for your input, I'll post the yes/no, is MLF complete tomorrow morning. I must admit, I'm feeling frustrated...maybe this hobby is bigger than me.

I would suggest that you run some bench tests. Try to determine what is missing. The first one I would try is adding acidity.
Set up 4 or 5 glasses with 1 ounce of wine in each, make a measured solution of tartaric acid and to the glasses in increasing doses. 1 mL in the first glass, 2 mL in the second, and so on...

You can do this with sugar syrup if you think it lacks sweetness. You can do this with glycerine if you think it lacks body. The bench tests will help you identify the missing component to your taste.

 

[DAB]

Thank you all for your input--MUCH appreciated. Okay, MLF is complete, I ran the test twice just to be sure. I'm going to attempt the bench trials as suggested, I trust that will improve the taste.

In answering some of your questions...The wine doesn't have any foul odors or taste, just very light and reminds me of a Pinot Noir in both color, body and overall presentation. Perhaps I should have racked more frequently. See attached is a picture. Hard to get a good picture, it's clear however.

I'm confused about the Winemakermag sulfite calculator and wonder if I'm using it correctly because I'm getting different numbers:

17 gal
PH 3.97
% Alcohol by Volume:13.5
Temperature: 72 degrees
Current level of free SO2: 0
Desired level of free SO2: 53
Desired Molecular SO2: .5 (default)
% Adjustment: 100

Calculator kicks back :13.75 Campden tablets (0.44-g format) which is only 0.8 tables per gallon. So, I'm not sure I'm using it correctly if you're getting 1.75 tablets/gallon. Can you please help me understand? In the meantime, I added 1 tablet per gallon for now. I'll also test it for free SO2 in the next day or so and report back.

 

[Stressbaby]

It's confusing, I don't like they way they've built this thing, but using your inputs, read under "Notes" it says the recommended free SO2 for this wine is 82 (given the 100% adjustment). Redo the calculation using 82 and you get 21.25 Campden tablets.

My numbers were different because I assumed a lower ABV and temp.

It doesn't look particularly oxidized to me. I'd start with bench trials of tartaric, just because it will help with preservation. After that, I wouldn't trial sugar additions, I suspect you want this dry, and you can't sorbate the wine after MLF anyhow, so short of sterile filtering it will not be stable after adding sugar. Next thing I'd do is correct the color with a product like this: http://www.piwine.com/grape-skin-extract-1-oz.html

Then if the wine is moving toward drinkable you could barrel it, being careful not to overoak. Note: your SO2 levels will drop up to twice as fast in the barrel so you need to probably increase the SO2 additions by 50% or more while barrel aging. Obviously you could oak with cubes/staves as well.

 

[DAB]

Okay, I see. Thank you. I'll get some of the extract and play with it. I'll also start with some bench trials of tartaric. Question about the oak barrel. How long--I realize it's very subjective--would one want to age a bold red in a 13.2 gallon Hungarian Oak barrel? I realize the smaller the barrel the more the wine is exposed to the wood vs a larger barrel. But roughly, how long? 1 month? 3 months? Or weekly taste tests until you've achieved a desirable product? And, does/can the oak fade over time once the wine is bottled?

Thank for the help!

 

[Johnd]

Okay, I see. Thank you. I'll get some of the extract and play with it. I'll also start with some bench trials of tartaric. Question about the oak barrel. How long--I realize it's very subjective--would one want to age a bold red in a 13.2 gallon Hungarian Oak barrel? I realize the smaller the barrel the more the wine is exposed to the wood vs a larger barrel. But roughly, how long? 1 month? 3 months? Or weekly taste tests until you've achieved a desirable product? And, does/can the oak fade over time once the wine is bottled?

Thank for the help!

It's a little bit of both. In a new 13 gallon barrel, the aging time should be somewhere in the 1-2 month range for the very first wine that goes into it, and you should taste it regularly to determine once you get to your desired level of oak. If you get to the point where there is slightly more of an oaky taste than you would desire, it will fall back in the bottle a bit as it ages, so don't despair if you go slightly over the taste threshold.

 

[DAB]

John, Thank you for the information...I appreciate your time. All good info.

 

[NorCal]

Honestly, I think it goes back to your starting point; the grapes. When I think Lodi Zin (I've gone to the Lodi Zin Fest), they are big, dark, spicy Zins and full of flavor. In my experience, you cannot get a big wine from a grape with 21 brix. If I'm doing a nice light Rose or a White, then fine, 21 brix is nice, but not a big red.

For Zin, I wouldn't think about getting a grape below 24.5 and preferably 25.5. If it came in at 26-26.5, I'd be fine as well. That is where you get the big flavors and color I expect out of a zin. What would I do? I'd go get some commercial Petite Sirah or Petit Verdot and try blending. It doesn't take much to change the character of a wine. Be careful on the acid adjustment, be sure to do bench trials, it will take very little to make the wine undrinkable.

 

[CDrew]

Excellent advice @NorCal.

 

[DAB]

NorCal, I agree, I too would expect a lot more from a zin and was surprised with a Brix of 21. Funny that you would suggest a blend with a Petite Sirah. I just crushed (September 14th 2019) a Petite Sirah (Lodi) and have 18 gallons on hand in my basement, which I just repacked yesterday morning. However, it too has a high PH 3.98, a TA of 7.5 and a starting Brix of 22 However, it started with a Ph of 4.15 and a TA of 5.5, requiring me to add 127.68 grams of Tartaric Acid. Now it seems too tart. But, perhaps I can do some blending of the two wines to create a desirable outcome. This Petite Sirah is my third batch ever and they all have high PH's that require some intervention--I don't understand that. I've never had a red with a ph of 3.6, always above 3.8.

Thank you all for the advice, I do appreciate this opportunity to learn more.

 

[NorCal]

NorCal, I agree, I too would expect a lot more from a zin and was surprised with a Brix of 21. Funny that you would suggest a blend with a Petite Sirah. I just crushed (September 14th 2019) a Petite Sirah (Lodi) and have 18 gallons on hand in my basement, which I just repacked yesterday morning. However, it too has a high PH 3.98, a TA of 7.5 and a starting Brix of 22 However, it started with a Ph of 4.15 and a TA of 5.5, requiring me to add 127.68 grams of Tartaric Acid. Now it seems too tart. But, perhaps I can do some blending of the two wines to create a desirable outcome. This Petite Sirah is my third batch ever and they all have high PH's that require some intervention--I don't understand that. I've never had a red with a ph of 3.6, always above 3.8.

Thank you all for the advice, I do appreciate this opportunity to learn more.

Welcome to Central Valley grapes! The acid issue is why the grapes are $1,500 per ton and not $9,000 per ton like in Napa. Adjust preferment, and the wine will be what it will be. Plan on consuming within 5 years.

You do need to find higher brix grapes. A blend of those two would probably be quite good!

 

[DAB]

Okay, SO2 = 70 ppm. Racked most of the 17 gallons into the 13.2 oak barrel plus three additional gallons into glass carboy. Henceforth, I'll watch the SO2 levels more closely, once a month and be sure to keep the head space monitored.

Next, I'm wanting to conduct bench trials with tartaric acid. Chuck E said to "Set up 4 or 5 glasses with 1 ounce of wine in each, make a measured solution of tartaric acid and to the glasses in increasing doses. 1 mL in the first glass, 2 mL in the second, and so on..." Any ideas on the best way to make a measured solution of tartaric acid?

Thank guys!

 

[stickman]

A 10% solution of the acid you will be using (eg 10g of tartaric made up to 100mL with water), use 100ml wine samples, this way each ml of acid solution added will be equivalent to 1g/l acid addition.

 

[DAB]

Stickman, thank you, I appreciate the gouge, that makes sense...'ll do just that.

 

[FXibley]

my uncle's 18 zin made from lodi grapes was off and unimpressive as well. might just be the grapes