Elderberry Concentrate

[GreginND]

Ok, I need some advice and insight from the elderberry wine makers out there. I have only made wine from fresh berries once some time ago and mixed them half and half with blueberries. I called it "Old Blue" and it was delightful. But I digress.

I just acquired 4 gallons of elderberry concentrate that is frozen from a friend. I don't know if it is a commercial concentrate or was made by someone else. I do know that it is really thick and syrupy.

Anyway, I really don't know what the numbers typically are (acid/sugar) for pure unconcentrated elderberry juice. I'm not sure how best to proceed. What are the main acids in elderberries?

Should I dilute it to a SG of 1.090 and go with that or will it be too acidic/too much tannin and flavor?
Should I dilute it to the right acid level and adjust the sugar? Will it be too concentrated or too dilute at that point?
Should I try to dilute it to a less accurate taste point where I think it is right and then adjust?

Would you blend it with other juices/fruits or go with straight elderberry?

My intention is to make a dry red wine and I'll add oak in the primary and possibly later.

Thanks!

 

[BobF]

I've never used concentrate and I've never done what I'm going to suggest. I have only done regular elderberry recipes ...

I would dilute for acidity and adjust SG to 1090 and tannins to taste by starting with a portion and scaling up for the full amount.
Also, I would use oak in the primary and during maturation.

 

[GreginND]

Thanks Bob. Do you know how acidic straight fresh elderberry juice is typically?

 

[BobF]

I've seen wildly different numbers. I haven't measured pure juice, so I've always had to add acid. Apparently the variety matters for acidity.

Check out crackedcork's site for good info:
http://www.oatmealjack.com/Elderberries/ElderberriesWine.html

 

[Julie]

I would say your acid should be around .70 - .75 but I like mine around .80.

 

[saramc]

Greg...Do you have anything you can measure the Brix level with?

If it were mine: before I tried to do anything with that concentrate, I would want to know if anything has been added, such as: sulfates and/or sorbates. If your container is not marked or your source cannot tell you, I would take 1 cup of it and attempt make a starter from it (after diluting to appropriate SG, checking pH/acid levels, etc). That alone would tell you if you can initiate a ferment.

Is the concentrate oxidized?

Don't know if this helps, http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/person/37108/PDF/Leeelderpolyp.pdf, but on page 4 of the PDF it gives data from the 2004 growing season (cultivar, Brix, TA, pH...) It would at least give you a general idea. [I know, I know--it is from 2004...but at least it is something]. I liked reading the article, but I admit I am not normal.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

i just acquired 4 gallons of elderberry concentrate that is frozen from a friend. I don't know if it is a commercial concentrate or was made by someone else. I do know that it is really thick and syrupy.

>is it frozen solid or in a syrup form in the freezer?

Anyway, i really don't know what the numbers typically are (acid/sugar) for pure unconcentrated elderberry juice. I'm not sure how best to proceed. What are the main acids in elderberries?

>i belive its citric.

>this chart has some guidelines to hel you. http://www.brsquared.org/wine/calcinfo/fruitinf.htm

should i dilute it to a sg of 1.090 and go with that or will it be too acidic/too much tannin and flavor? Should i dilute it to the right acid level and adjust the sugar?

>elderberry is not very acidic, not like raspberries, so it might be best to dilute it down to the sg you want to start with and correct the acid. But you might end up with 20 gallons of wine if you do that, if you can pour it out as a syrup you might want to take a liter of it and dilute it out until you reach 1.090 and then test for the acid level, taste etc.

Will it be too concentrated or too dilute at that point?

>hard to tell since nobody knows what you are staring with.

Should i try to dilute it to a less accurate taste point where i think it is right and then adjust?

Would you blend it with other juices/fruits or go with straight elderberry?

>if its concentrated i would aim for making 5 or 6 gallons of elderberry dry like you wanted, and then 3 gallons of an elderberry port style, and save some for boosting the color and flavor of some of your other red wines, your blueberry already turned out well.

My intention is to make a dry red wine and i'll add oak in the primary and possibly later.

>elderberry takes oak very well, sometimes wine judges though think of it as only a fruit wine and dont understand why you put oak in it, but it really does go well.

>you have gotten a lot of hints on this thread, you should be able to make a good wine from a concentrate nobody knows what it is or from, drill your friend a little more for information, i am sure he wants a bottle of wine.

>sarah made a very good point, after you dilute your liter of syrup to define the acids and how much you will need for 5 or 6 gallons toss in your yeast and see if it lives. You will need to add some nutrients to this also and dont forget your pectic enzymes, if this was heated in any way it might be harder to clear without pectinase and fining later on.

> good luck

crackedcork

thanks!

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