Elderberry wine

[ffemt128]

Apparently the induction cooktop doesnt like my Stainless Steamer...

 

[Julie]

Apparently the induction cooktop doesnt like my Stainless Steamer...

oh oh what happened?

 

[ffemt128]

Truly stainless. The induction cooktop requires at least a small amount of metalic metal in order to trigger the on switch.

(metallic metal should be magnetic...my bad)

 

[ffemt128]

Seven gallons of 100% elderberry juice sitting in the fermenter. Still have about 55 lbs of berries to steam tomorrow. Shooting for right around 6 lbs per gallon. I have 28 lbs of skins from today that will be combined with tomorrows skins to make a 7 gallon 2nds batch...

 

[sour_grapes]

Truely stainless. The induction cooktop requires at least a dmall amount of metalic metal in order to trigger the on switch.

Stainless is certainly metallic. It is (or, should I say, many grades of it are) not ferromagnetic. 300 series is NOT ferromagnetic, 400 series is.

 

[ffemt128]

Thats what I meant to say, it need to be magnetic. Of course stainless is metalic ... lol

 

[Gussman]

Steamer

Where did you get that nice STEAMER? I want one LOL.

 

[ffemt128]

Where did you get that nice STEAMER? I want one LOL.

Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0055Q2D2W/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[sour_grapes]

Thats what I meant to say, it need to be magnetic. Of course stainless is metalic ... lol

Okay, that makes sense!

Geek alert! I am going to be geeky for a moment and discuss the magnetism of stainless steel. Please just ignore this if not interested. I fully understand that almost no one will care, and it has almost nothing to do with elderberry winemaking, but I am stuck inside until this rain lets up!

The magnetism (or lack thereof) in steel and stainless is interesting. Normally, metal atoms "want" to be as close together as possible, and so adopt a crystal structure (that is, the arrangement of the atoms) that allows this. There are two such structures, but we will only deal here with the one called face-centered cubic (FCC).
You would naively expect pure iron to be FCC to allow the atoms to pack as closely together as possible. However, there is one problem: iron atoms (Fe) have a magnetic moment, and the FCC structure does NOT allow these magnetic moments to all line up. (Magnetic moments "want" to line up, that is, they have lower energy that way.) Therefore, it turns out to be more favorable (lower in energy) for the atoms to take on a different crystal structure, called body-centered cubic (BCC), even though the atoms are not packed in as closely as possible. The consequent alignment of the magnetic moments of each atom makes iron ferromagnetic.

[Note to experts: I am not going to go into the addition of carbon to iron to make steel, i.e., pearlite, cementite, etc. Even in steel, it is the remaining FCC iron that makes it ferromagnetic.]

Now, how do you make stainless steel? You start adding nickel (Ni) and or chromium (Cr) to the regular iron steel. This makes the steel "stainless" because the oxides of Ni and Cr form a layer on top of the steel that prevents further oxidation. (This is why the wires in your toaster, for example, are a Ni-Cr alloy.)
However, Ni and Cr have much smaller magnetic moments than Fe does. If you add enough Ni and/or Cr, the energetic "payoff" from having the atoms arranged in a BCC structure (to allow the alignment of the magnetic moments) is no longer sufficient to overcome the energetic payoff of allowing the atoms to pack more closely in an FCC structure. Thus, the atoms rearrange into an FCC structure, and the magnetic moments are scrambled, and you lose the ferromagnetism. This is how the 300 series of stainless steel is formed.

However, if you add only a little Ni, the BCC structure remains. (Many of the 400 series grades of stainless are made this way.) Because the BCC structure remains, the magnetic moments can all align, and the material will be ferromagnetic.

Because of the low Ni content, 400 series stainless is cheaper to make. It is appropriate for applications where only mild resistance to oxidation is needed, like furniture or the skin of stainless steel kitchen appliances. So, if you have ever wondered why refrigerator magnets stick to some stainless steel refrigerators, but not others, well, now you know!

 

[ffemt128]

Here are some initial numbers.... SG = 1.016, ph = 3.87 and ta = .5703% . I was a little surprised by the ph and ta numbers so I calibrated my ph meter and check again. They were accurate.

 

[ffemt128]

Okay, that makes sense!

Geek alert! I am going to be geeky for a moment and discuss the magnetism of stainless steel. Please just ignore this if not interested. I fully understand that almost no one will care, and it has almost nothing to do with elderberry winemaking, but I am stuck inside until this rain lets up!

The magnetism (or lack thereof) in steel and stainless is interesting. Normally, metal atoms "want" to be as close together as possible, and so adopt a crystal structure (that is, the arrangement of the atoms) that allows this. There are two such structures, but we will only deal here with the one called face-centered cubic (FCC).
You would naively expect pure iron to be FCC to allow the atoms to pack as closely together as possible. However, there is one problem: iron atoms (Fe) have a magnetic moment, and the FCC structure does NOT allow these magnetic moments to all line up. (Magnetic moments "want" to line up, that is, they have lower energy that way.) Therefore, it turns out to be more favorable (lower in energy) for the atoms to take on a different crystal structure, called body-centered cubic (BCC), even though the atoms are not packed in as closely as possible. The consequent alignment of the magnetic moments of each atom makes iron ferromagnetic.

[Note to experts: I am not going to go into the addition of carbon to iron to make steel, i.e., pearlite, cementite, etc. Even in steel, it is the remaining FCC iron that makes it ferromagnetic.]

Now, how do you make stainless steel? You start adding nickel (Ni) and or chromium (Cr) to the regular iron steel. This makes the steel "stainless" because the oxides of Ni and Cr form a layer on top of the steel that prevents further oxidation. (This is why the wires in your toaster, for example, are a Ni-Cr alloy.)
However, Ni and Cr have much smaller magnetic moments than Fe does. If you add enough Ni and/or Cr, the energetic "payoff" from having the atoms arranged in a BCC structure (to allow the alignment of the magnetic moments) is no longer sufficient to overcome the energetic payoff of allowing the atoms to pack more closely in an FCC structure. Thus, the atoms rearrange into an FCC structure, and the magnetic moments are scrambled, and you lose the ferromagnetism. This is how the 300 series of stainless steel is formed.

However, if you add only a little Ni, the BCC structure remains. (Many of the 400 series grades of stainless are made this way.) Because the BCC structure remains, the magnetic moments can all align, and the material will be ferromagnetic.

Because of the low Ni content, 400 series stainless is cheaper to make. It is appropriate for applications where only mild resistance to oxidation is needed, like furniture or the skin of stainless steel kitchen appliances. So, if you have ever wondered why refrigerator magnets stick to some stainless steel refrigerators, but not others, well, now you know!

Thanks for the explanation, that would explain why my cheap stainless pots from Harbor Freight work with my induction top. I use those in the cellar to make my simple syrup mixtures.

 

[cmason1957]

Here are some initial numbers.... SG = 1.016, ph = 3.87 and ta = .5703% . I was a little surprised by the ph and ta numbers so I calibrated my ph meter and check again. They were accurate.

What surprised you about these numbers?? They seem about what I would expect, I have always had to add some acid to my elderberry wine to get it to a fairly normal 3.3 or 3.4 ph. I don't generally worry much about the TA, so I don't have those numbers off the top of my head.

 

[ffemt128]

What surprised you about these numbers?? They seem about what I would expect, I have always had to add some acid to my elderberry wine to get it to a fairly normal 3.3 or 3.4 ph. I don't generally worry much about the TA, so I don't have those numbers off the top of my head.

I've always had to add acid as well, to be honest I thought the TA was a little high and the ph a little low.. Everything is mixed. Yeast will be pitched this am..

 

[ffemt128]

71b Yeast was pitched and we have full foamy fermentation. Were talking foamy as in meringue type foamy.

 

[ffemt128]

Transferred my 2nds batch to glass yesterday. 7.5 gallons. Looks to be very full bodied. The all elderberry batch was still at 1.004 Sg. I'll check that later today and possibly transfer if closer to 1.000. 11 days of fermenting. I think the colder Temps in the cellar attributed to the time..

 

[stevo]

question on the eldeberry

I made this from the large cans of juice ,came out strong in the eldeberry taste a little too strong, and very bitter, the smell is not so great but it tastes and smells like eldeberries,can I add anything to these before drinking to sort of cut the bitterness?

 

[Julie]

did you check you acid level? I'm thinking you need to lower your acid.

 

[stevo]

no I have not checked acidity but I will get a meter, should the acidity for all fruit wines be around the same?

 

[Julie]

actually I like my elderberry to be around .80% TA. The strong flavor of the elderberry can handle the higher TA.

 

[Stressbaby]

Bitterness vs acidity

Stevo,
I consider bitterness differently from acidity. How old is the wine? Bitterness could be from the wine being young; I've had bitter fruit wines mellow out with age, so you probably should do nothing until this wine has bulk aged for a while. There is a fining agent called Bentolact which is supposed to help with bitterness, I have never tried it.

Doug,
We would love to see some pictures!

Robert