extended maceration

[colariu]

It is my first-time trying extended maceration for a Cab/Merlot blend from grapes. Carbonic fermentation is complete, and I fermented to dry. Now I have all the wine/grapes into a barrel with an airtight lid on (no airlock). There is some cap formation but not much and not much Co2 as well. I do have about 6 inch airspace in the barrel. What temperature should I keep the wine for EM? Should I add any Co2 /Argon to it? (no S02 added ) Do I need to open the lid on a daily basis to punch down the cap and oversee the EM? Thanks

 

[Rice_Guy]

If you said the wine with the skins is in an oak barrel,,, WOW that will be a cleaning problem when you stop.
The general guide is EM up to a month. The grape skins will be floating which means that mold is a risk and you are correct a non oxygen head space prevents mold growth.

 

[colariu]

any temperature profile for EM ?

 

[winemaker81]

EM is normally started while the grapes are still fermenting, as they produce CO2 which fills the headspace and prevents O2-related problems. Since yours fermented dry, you may be better off doing a short EM.

 

[David Violante]

I agree with both of the above… EM is usually started when there’s still a bit of off-gassing. Opening it up to do punch-downs brings you back to the beginning of that piece. Being on the skins for longer is a great idea, if what you want is what you get from it. (It’s your wine and you have to be happy with it) Another option for next time is cold soaking ahead of time. Both have similar benefits. I probably wouldn’t do both. I’m a huge fan of EM.

If I woke up in your shoes, and wanted to do EM, which I probably would, I would sparge with CO2 or Argon, put under airlock, not open it up, gently rock it back and forth daily to wet the skins on top (if possible), and for the next four weeks read about how to clean a barrel of skins and seeds. I don’t know of an optimal temperature for EM. I also don’t know how effective EM is in a barrel. Since there’s water loss over time, which means air entry to account for the loss or if it’s really tight a vacuum, I’m. It sure it’s worth trying in that medium. I just really don’t know.

It‘s still a bit early, and possible that there’s CO2 still in suspension. Do you have a sealable container you could move this to that‘s airtight and in which you could also sparge with CO2/Argon? How much are we talking about?

 

[colariu]

I agree with both of the above… EM is usually started when there’s still a bit of off-gassing. Opening it up to do punch-downs brings you back to the beginning of that piece. Being on the skins for longer is a great idea, if what you want is what you get from it. (It’s your wine and you have to be happy with it) Another option for next time is cold soaking ahead of time. Both have similar benefits. I probably wouldn’t do both. I’m a huge fan of EM.

If I woke up in your shoes, and wanted to do EM, which I probably would, I would sparge with CO2 or Argon, put under airlock, not open it up, gently rock it back and forth daily to wet the skins on top (if possible), and for the next four weeks read about how to clean a barrel of skins and seeds. I don’t know of an optimal temperature for EM. I also don’t know how effective EM is in a barrel. Since there’s water loss over time, which means air entry to account for the loss or if it’s really tight a vacuum, I’m. It sure it’s worth trying in that medium. I just really don’t know.

It‘s still a bit early, and possible that there’s CO2 still in suspension. Do you have a sealable container you could move this to that‘s airtight and in which you could also sparge with CO2/Argon? How much are we talking abothanks

I agree with both of the above… EM is usually started when there’s still a bit of off-gassing. Opening it up to do punch-downs brings you back to the beginning of that piece. Being on the skins for longer is a great idea, if what you want is what you get from it. (It’s your wine and you have to be happy with it) Another option for next time is cold soaking ahead of time. Both have similar benefits. I probably wouldn’t do both. I’m a huge fan of EM.

If I woke up in your shoes, and wanted to do EM, which I probably would, I would sparge with CO2 or Argon, put under airlock, not open it up, gently rock it back and forth daily to wet the skins on top (if possible), and for the next four weeks read about how to clean a barrel of skins and seeds. I don’t know of an optimal temperature for EM. I also don’t know how effective EM is in a barrel. Since there’s water loss over time, which means air entry to account for the loss or if it’s really tight a vacuum, I’m. It sure it’s worth trying in that medium. I just really don’t know.

It‘s still a bit early, and possible that there’s CO2 still in suspension. Do you have a sealable container you could move this to that‘s airtight and in which you could also sparge with CO2/Argon? How much are we talking about?

Thanks all for the support. I moved it to a sealable 120 liter plastic drum...unfortunately it did not fill all the way to the top of the drum so I covered the wine with a food grade plastic wrap to minimize the air inside the drum interacting with the wine and then sealed it with the plastic lid.I have no co2 /argon so I hope I can get a co2 canister tomorrow.What I have noticed is that there is barrely a cap formation ...am I too late to proceed with extended maceration?

 

[Rice_Guy]

You are doing a lot of manipulation which translates to oxygen exposure.

You are not too late, EM means contact with the skins and if it sinks the contact is better. Are you in a community where there is a dry ice supplier? Dry ice is easy to handle and would blow out the head space. your drum has a removable top, ,,, this gives the option of floating a half full closed lid five gallon pail on the existing plastic/ removing some of the volume. If volume is small float gallon jugs ,,, some of the old technology would have a hold down plate, ,,, what do you have that is round,

Temperature? molds do not grow at refrigerator temp. generally extraction of chemicals is assumed to be twice as fast for a 10C increase in temp, flavors deteriorate at 80F. This gives a lot of range, ,,, practically speaking what can you generate.

 

[David Violante]

Good advice above. You can also absolutely add KMETA, especially since you've opened it up to move it a couple of times. This will assist in thwarting microbes and taking care of some of the oxygen in there now. I like the dry ice idea also. How much headspace do you have? Also, can you see through the container or is it opaque? I will typically end my EM when I see most all of the skins have finally floated to the bottom. It usually takes several weeks for this to happen. Once you've added CO2 or Dry Ice, and KMETA, don't open it up unless you plan on replenishing all those things. Doing so will expose the must to oxygen and it has a relatively large surface area in a drum.

My process has been to move the wine from a fermenter to a Fermonster when it's at about 1.010 and the possibility of volcanic activity has subsided quite a bit. I seal it up and place it under airlock to allow it to blow off CO2 and finish fermentation. Sometimes the berries get pushed up into the cone a bit and I have to swirl it to get them soaked and the CO2 dispersed through the airlock, but that's ok. After some time it all subsides and the temperature drops (lack of metabolic activity by the yeast) and somewhere in the next weeks (4-8) I'll then open it up, rack off the skins, press, add kmeta, and put in a carboy. I'm only doing 5-6 gallons at a time.

Keep asking questions and keep us updated.

 

[colariu]

Update to my situation: I was able to add cap from a wine that is similar to mine (a friend of mine was doing the same style wine and I was able to take his entire cap and add it to my drum , so in a way I drastically increased the amount of skins to the amount of juice I originally started with ) and now I am able to have little to no air in the drum, which is covered with a sealed lid at 70 F ( no airlock).It is in this condition for about a week and I have been opening the drum every day ( there is still slow fermentation going and I need to let the CO2 escape- I am considering adding an air lock so I do not have to open the lid until it is time to press. Everything is looking promising, I have not added any sulfites

 

[David Violante]

This is an (ok) place to be at the moment, but you’re going to want to put it under airlock as soon as possible to reduce the amount of air in contact with the must. Doing so now will allow the CO2 to continuously mix with the current volume and slowly increase its concentration and decrease other gasses in there, namely oxygen. The sooner the better.

With that many skins, it sounds like it’s going to be a nice full bodied wine!

 

[colariu]

I ended up pressing the wine after 4 weeks. I was opening the lid every other day and taking samples and inspecting the wine making sure it is not turning into one of the most expensive vinegars. By the 4th week the wine rose to the top and air space was very limited during this time ; I even added argon gas to protect it from spoilage. Two days after I pressed, I racked the wine and added acti-ML and Malolactic bacteria. I ended up hydrating Acti-ML with water and then I added the malolactic bacteria to it; mixed all into a nice creamy solution waited 10 minutes and then I added the solution to the wine. I check the for any signs of bubbles for 2 days ...and nothing. I added some oak cubes to two of the 3 carboys which they now developed some bubble rings, however the third carboy which does not have oak cubes still has no bubble rings from the malolactic bacteria. No sulfites were added so far. Any idea of why no signs of malolactic fermentation ?

Thank you

 

[Ohio Bob]

I ended up pressing the wine after 4 weeks. I was opening the lid every other day and taking samples and inspecting the wine making sure it is not turning into one of the most expensive vinegars. By the 4th week the wine rose to the top and air space was very limited during this time ; I even added argon gas to protect it from spoilage. Two days after I pressed, I racked the wine and added acti-ML and Malolactic bacteria. I ended up hydrating Acti-ML with water and then I added the malolactic bacteria to it; mixed all into a nice creamy solution waited 10 minutes and then I added the solution to the wine. I check the for any signs of bubbles for 2 days ...and nothing. I added some oak cubes to two of the 3 carboys which they now developed some bubble rings, however the third carboy which does not have oak cubes still has no bubble rings from the malolactic bacteria. No sulfites were added so far. Any idea of why no signs of malolactic fermentation ?

Thank you

My experience is MLF does not bubble like a yeast fermentation. It’s very chill.

 

[mbleill]

MLF needs temperatures in the range of 65 to 75 deg F.

 

[terrie morris]

It is my first-time trying extended maceration for a Cab/Merlot blend from grapes. Carbonic fermentation is complete, and I fermented to dry. Now I have all the wine/grapes into a barrel with an airtight lid on (no airlock). There is some cap formation but not much and not much Co2 as well. I do have about 6 inch airspace in the barrel. What temperature should I keep the wine for EM? Should I add any Co2 /Argon to it? (no S02 added ) Do I need to open the lid on a daily basis to punch down the cap and oversee the EM? Thanks

Gosh ! It sounds like alot of work and chemicals ? I just used juice, sugar and honey so simple and it's really good.

 

[terrie morris]

Gosh ! It sounds like alot of work and chemicals ? I just used juice, sugar and honey so simple and it's really good.

But I'm not making for anybody just me and my friends and family.

 

[colariu]

But I'm not making for anybody just me and my friends and family.

no sugar or honey added just quality sweet Californian grapes

 

[terrie morris]

Awesome !

 

[Ajmassa]

no sugar or honey added just quality sweet Californian grapes

U testing you mlf at all? I would always do co-innocculTion during early fermentation. Then right after pressing I’d take a baseline test. If trying to determine if mlf started or if mlf finished those chromoatography tests can be a pain w/o a reference point. Often my baseline test would appear finished too. Co-inoculation mlfs go quick.

Digging the thread. It’s fun to experiment different methods. How was getting skins in and out of the barrel btw? Tbh that sounds like a massive pain in the ***. I tried something similar I did a poor man’s carbonic maceration. Documented a lot of it in this thread. Used about 30% whole cluster on the bottom. Was hard enough in open fermenter. Can’t imagine a barrel unless you modified it to be fermentor open from the side.


I guess the other thing is tannin. Thats the one big concern with this right? There’s a sweet spot and ya don’t wanna overshoot if it’s already a bold red.
What varietal you making anyway?

 

[terrie morris]

Gosh ! It sounds like alot of work and chemicals ? I just used juice, sugar and honey so simple and it's really good.

I don't live in Cali I live in Kansas so I do with what I have lol.

 

[terrie morris]

I don't live in Cali I live in Kansas so I do with what I have lol.

It's good enough for me lol.