Ferment on premise...legal in the US?

[canoe]

Just read elswhere that the Canadian FOP model is illegal in the US.

In the US you have to be either licenced as a winery, or if an FOP use a model known as a Home winemaking center. They can rent space to the customer but the customer must do all steps. The FOP owner is not allowed get involved in the process other than supplying equipment and advice.

Cheers
Bill

 

[mmadmikes1]

Just read elswhere that the Canadian FOP model is illegal in the US.

In the US you have to be either licenced as a winery, or if an FOP use a model known as a Home winemaking center. They can rent space to the customer but the customer must do all steps. The FOP owner is not allowed get involved in the process other than supplying equipment and advice.

Cheers
Bill

That is incorrect here in Washington , but every state has its own laws, Hell there are still places in America it is illegal to sell booze. In Washington you need a liqueur license, but not the same as bar, same as store selling Beer and Wine

 

[gonzo46307]

Update time...

She only got 2 cases (24 bottles) out of the kit. That's over a gallon of loss, which is really surprising for me. Even if they never topped off, and just used inert gas to offset the oxygen in the carboy...a gallon is way too much to loose.

The final tally is $250 for 24 bottles of wine. Oop's I forgot, he charged her $10 to filter the wine as they bottled it... So it's $260 for 24 bottles.

I told him next time to just give me $50 and I'll kick him in the ***.

Peace,
Bob

 

[Wade E]

Wow, thats like $11 per bottle! Ill do it for them next time!

 

[cpfan]

Update time...

She only got 2 cases (24 bottles) out of the kit. That's over a gallon of loss, which is really surprising for me.

Some places believe in maing the kits as 5 US gallons instead of 6.

Steve

 

[Tom]

Hell some of my fruit wines cost me the price of yeast..
The rest no more then 1.50 a bottle as I get fruit at a "deal"

 

[non-grapenut]

Where's the fun in that? It's like drinking a virgin pina colada!

 

[non-grapenut]

Where's the fun in that? It's like drinking a virgin pina colada!

I meant F.O.P.!!!!

 

[JakeSnow]

There is a FOP place in town so I went in to check it out. Wine was made from Winexpert kits and cost anywhere from $9-$14 a bottle. It is popular here but it seemed to me to take away all the fun. I headed to the brew shop and found wine kits there and that's how I got started. To my amazement doing it yourself cut the cost in third! What a rip off the FOP was, although I'd have to invest in all the equipment and do all the sanitization etc.
As of the legality of it, yes each state has it's own laws. However, the federal gvt says you cannot brew more than 200 gallons of alcohol a year or sell the wine you make yourself or else the ATF will be knocking on your door.
So how do they get around that? They mix up the juice and water and walk away. YOU pitch the yeast therefore starting the fermentation process and therefore responsible for creating alcohol. They rack and store the wine for you. You purchased grape juice, but end up taking wine home.

 

[non-grapenut]

I have an email in to the ATF here in Florida. I posed the important questions: what happens if I want to gift a bottle, what happens if I want to mail a bottle to my sister, what happens if I want to commercially sell my creations--what would be the cost of the license and permit to do each of these. I will share what info I get with everyone...

 

[JakeSnow]

Disclaimer: I"m not a legal expert.
With that in mind, I think it's perfectly OK to give a gift of homebrew. Problem comes when you sell it because 1.) human (the public) will consume it. Your homebrew needs to follow health standard etc. 2.) the gvt wants some tax money from it. 3.) alcohol is a controlled substance so you need a liquor license.
As far as mailing it, I think the USPS is against mailing alcohol or liquids. I don't know about FedEx or UPS. I think I remember when WineMaker Mag has their annual competition they state to have the wine in an unmarked box and lie if asked if you are mailing a liquid. (but don't quote me on that). There are also problems with mailing alcohol over state lines. It's all a big mess.

 

[Huh?]

I have an email in to the ATF here in Florida. I posed the important questions: what happens if I want to gift a bottle, what happens if I want to mail a bottle to my sister, what happens if I want to commercially sell my creations--what would be the cost of the license and permit to do each of these. I will share what info I get with everyone...

Non-grapenut,

You can gift your wine to anyone you choose. You can make up to 100 gallons per year without a permit for personal use, 200 gallons annually if you have a spouse. You cannot mail a bottle to your sister through the US Postal Service. UPS will ship your wine. I don't know about FedEx. To sell your creations, you will need either a Bonded Winery or Bonded Wine Cellers permit from the TTB (Tax and Trade Bureau). There is no cost to obtain the permit, but you will be required to post a Wine Bond. The minimum wine bond amount is $1,000 and they cost between $100 -$150. In addition, the TTB will want $0.17 per gallon of any wine produced, if you produce less than 150,000 gallons annually. If more than that, then they want $1.07 per gallon.

There are other requirements besides filling out the application for the permit. The TTB does a background check on you, you have to supply financial information, you have to prove your site is secure and you have to have all of your equipment either installed or on order at the time you send them the application. Each permit is site specific. This list is not all inclusive. If you go to the TTB website, it will walk you through what you need to do and who you can contact if you have any questions. (www.ttb.gov)

That's just the federal government. Each state has their own unique set of laws and regulations. You also want to be cognizant of county and local laws and regulations such as, zoning, health permits, sewage requirements, etc.

I also want to state that I'm not an attorney. This information can change at the whims of Congress and regulators at any time.

Huh

 

[non-grapenut]

Wow, "Huh!" I'd quote you but...wow...We all know "if it was THAT easy, everyone would be doing it," right? Let me now break into some dueling banjos and move back on with my simple life. BTW: that info was quite helpful. We all have goals..or should we call them, dreams?

 

[Lakewood Wines]

FOP, Winery permitting

Huh gave a good explanation of the requirements for a bonded winery. There are two federal permit required, "Basic Permit" which defines the operation (IE. Distillery, winemaking /Blending,Rectifier, wholesale Etc) and then there is there is the permit to "establish and operate a wine premise". The latter is the "Bonded situation". In addition to the bond, background check, proof of finances ect, the is also zoning,environmental, water quality and others to deal with.
In Florida we also require a state licenses.
In addition to the Permits, There is label approval and state brand approval.
In regards to FOP places, if you read the TTB regs, if the FOP performs any of the processes other than testing (IE specific gravity, etc) it is considered you are making wine for resale and therefor require permitting.
We still do FOP although our mainstay is bottle sales.
Regard
Frank Vespa
Lakewood Wines
www.winemakingpantry.com

 

[Wade E]

Man, the 2 of you are a plethera of winery info and we really appreciate that whether it steers us away due to too much BS or just lets us know what we're in for!

 

[mmadmikes1]

I would NEVER make more than 100 gallons. So I cant add either

 

[Lakewood Wines]

Permits,FOP

Wade
I would never try to discourage anybody from getting the proper permits or licenses to fulfill a dream, our just open a dam good business. Quite the opposite. My only advise is to go it steady and gain the understanding of what is expected of you as you go along. Many wineries are run out of households (providing permitting is OK). And be assured that if you contact the TTB, they bend over backward to tell you what is required and how to go about collaborating the documentation for the permitting. it seems cumbersome but it really is one step at a time, don't rush it, take it one step at a time and be as concise as you can.
I don't know if there are FOP shops in your area, but FOP's are a good adjunct to a startup winery.
Remember once you get your permitting you then need to seek out a distributor. A winery is allowed to retail off their premise, but to sell to other retailers you must go through a "Wholesaler"
I would be willing to answer any questions pertaining to permitting, or I can direct you to where to get the info needed.
Regards
Frank V
Lakewood Wines
www.winemakingpantry.com

 

[non-grapenut]

Wade
I would never try to discourage anybody from getting the proper permits or licenses to fulfill a dream, our just open a dam good business. Quite the opposite. My only advise is to go it steady and gain the understanding of what is expected of you as you go along. Many wineries are run out of households (providing permitting is OK). And be assured that if you contact the TTB, they bend over backward to tell you what is required and how to go about collaborating the documentation for the permitting. it seems cumbersome but it really is one step at a time, don't rush it, take it one step at a time and be as concise as you can.
I don't know if there are FOP shops in your area, but FOP's are a good adjunct to a startup winery.
Remember once you get your permitting you then need to seek out a distributor. A winery is allowed to retail off their premise, but to sell to other retailers you must go through a "Wholesaler"
I would be willing to answer any questions pertaining to permitting, or I can direct you to where to get the info needed.
Regards
Frank V
Lakewood Wines
www.winemakingpantry.com

Frank, Thanks for all this info. I am just dabbling in it now..sometimes they say if you make a business out of a hobby, it takes the fun out of it...are THEY right?

 

[Lakewood Wines]

Winery

I have a lot of fun everyday. The biz allows me to get more in depth as to how to make good wine, blending and finishing. No doubt some great wine is made from kits, the addition of properly oaked blending wine and chemicaly ballanced wines rival even the best kits.
Regards
Frank
www.winemakingpantrty.com

PS-You won't have any sustantial income for a couple of years,that is why I mentioned the FOP as a great adjuct to a startup winery.

 

[cpfan]

First, remember that FoPs are better known in Canada, so there is less of a sell involved.

I opened an FoP in a small BC town (pop 5000) in Sept 2001, and showed an operatiing profit at the end of the year (note that does not mean I covered the startup costs). The previous FoP in town had closed April 2001, so there was a bit of a built-up demand. I closed Sept 2007, and to the best of my knowledge there is no FoP in that town yet.

Steve