Fermentation Won't Start

[joshjacobsen]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. A drum is more then I would like to make of a single wine but the the thread has intrigued me. If you don't mind, who did you get it from?

@mainshipfred - no problem! You can purchase a pale (5-6 gallons, can't recall) as well.

A popular source for frozen musts is Brehm Vineyards (https://www.brehmvineyards.com/, though you can also purchase via morewinemaking.com). Some of the grapes are from their own vineyards in Washington state while some are from other vineyards (ie in California) who they've established partnerships with. You can have them shipped or can pick-up in person (which obviously saves you shipping costs) if you're near one of their storage locations. I know there's another source, I believe on the East Coast, that I've heard people reference multiple times but your location and the inventory of whomever you're considering would probably make one more appropriate than the other. Good luck!

 

[joshjacobsen]

Hi all - I'll update the thread w/ an SG reading tonight, am currently waiting for my sample to settle/clarify as the juice still contains a decent level of solids.

A couple updates:

1) On the belief that fermentation was underway, I added my half-dose of Fermaid-O but have seen no change in activity.

2) Furthermore, The bubbles/foaming depicted in my original picture have subsided to much lower (almost non-existent) amount, which seemingly reinforces my concern that the original amount of said bubbles/foam was the result of my excessive stirring (to dissipate S02) conducted shortly before the picture was taken

Per the above, my questions are as follows:

1) If my SG reading substantiates no fermentation should I re-innoculate? Or are there other alternative actions?

2) Will there be any negative side effect from the existence of my original yeast/Go-Ferm in the must?

3) Should I wait a certain amount of time given my recent Fermaid-O addition?

4) Should I be concerned w/ oxygenation given that my original S02 dosage was on 1/1, I've been stirring regularly dissipate it, and there's no C02 being produced by an active fermentation?

Thanks in advance!

 

[stickman]

1) yes, re-inocculate

2) No negative side effect associated with the original yeast etc.

3) do not wait any longer, re-inocculate. What is the must temperature now?

4) no problem with oxygenation now, but get an active yeast starter going asap. Any unusual odors occurring at this time?

 

[Scooter68]

I wouldn't wait for the solids to drop out of the sample. Unless your wine must is the consistency of apple sauce causing the hydrometer to 'stick'/stop before settling - those solids aren't going to prevent an accurate reading. Remember you are just trying to assess what progress has been made, not get down to super-accurate reading. When there are a lot of solids in my must I sanitize a small glass and slide it done the edge of the bucket so that little to no significant solids end up in my sample. Establishing the presence of fermentation is much more important now that deciding if the reading is 1.075 or 1.072. If it started at `1.085 (For example) and it's now 1.075, then your fermentation is running on the slow side and needs a little 'inspiration' to ferment faster. If it started at `1.085 and it's now at 1.055, then there isn't a lot to worry about now.

 

[joshjacobsen]

1) yes, re-inocculate

2) No negative side effect associated with the original yeast etc.

3) do not wait any longer, re-inocculate. What is the must temperature now?

4) no problem with oxygenation now, but get an active yeast starter going asap. Any unusual odors occurring at this time?

Thanks @stickman, will re-inoculate ASAP. To answer your questions, temperature is hovering between 68-70F, no unusual odors thus far.

Do you have a recommended yeast strain? I'd originally used RC 212 but I just read that it's alcohol tolerance is 12-14% (something I'd overlooked as my Brix/SG looks to be 25/1.11 respectively, so potentially 15% alcohol).

Given my sensitivity to non-starters, I'd considered the following:

-BM45 (long lag, moderate fermenter, 16% ABV tolerance)
-RP15 (N/A lag, moderate fermenter, 16% ABV tolerance)
-W15 (short lag, moderate fermenter, 16% ABV tolerance) < likely choice

Also, I know EC 1118 is supposedly a tried/true beast but there was mention of high S02 production that'd inhibit MLF (which I plan to do).

Thoughts on the above or any others?

 

[joshjacobsen]

I wouldn't wait for the solids to drop out of the sample. Unless your wine must is the consistency of apple sauce causing the hydrometer to 'stick'/stop before settling - those solids aren't going to prevent an accurate reading. Remember you are just trying to assess what progress has been made, not get down to super-accurate reading. When there are a lot of solids in my must I sanitize a small glass and slide it done the edge of the bucket so that little to no significant solids end up in my sample. Establishing the presence of fermentation is much more important now that deciding if the reading is 1.075 or 1.072. If it started at `1.085 (For example) and it's now 1.075, then your fermentation is running on the slow side and needs a little 'inspiration' to ferment faster. If it started at `1.085 and it's now at 1.055, then there isn't a lot to worry about now.

Thanks @Scooter68 - I took a reading w/ said solids still unsettled and everything showed no progress (Brix/SG/Alcohol of 25/1.11/15% respectively - which I know is high for a Pinot Noir but that looks to be the case).

 

[stickman]

This is the information I have for RC212; it looks like it is good to 16% as long as you use proper nutrients. I would get a starter going in a pail asap.

 

[sdelli]

Am I going crazy or did you just get all the information needed to re inoculate without STILL producing any sg readings proving a stuck fermentation?

 

[joshjacobsen]

This is the information I have for RC212; it looks like it is good to 16% as long as you use proper nutrients. I would get a starter going in a pail asap.

Thanks @stickman - I’m out of RC 212 but have the other three I mentioned, jist need to decide on which one to use. Going to prepare a starter and re-pitch tonight.

 

[joshjacobsen]

Am I going crazy or did you just get all the information needed to re inoculate without STILL producing any sg readings proving a stuck fermentation?

Hi @sdelli - I mentioned in one of my previous posts that I’d taken a reading and that no changes were observed. Any other tips before I re-pitch? Thanks!

 

[pgentile]

I read through this thread pretty fast, but didn't see any reference to pH or TA? If you are at 1.110 still, unless your sg was higher when you started it, I doubt fermentation is underway. I have not found RC-212 to be finicky and has started for me every time I have used it. But one thing you might want to do is check the pH of the must. If it's too low you might not have success re-pitching.

If I missed the pH reference please disregard

 

[sdelli]

Hi @sdelli - I mentioned in one of my previous posts that I’d taken a reading and that no changes were observed. Any other tips before I re-pitch? Thanks!

Thanks.... Read thru them and must of missed that

 

[sdelli]

So since it sounds like you officially have a stuck fermentation I hope the suggestions given here get it going again. Although I have never had to deal with one the reading I spent time on was a little more involved then just pitching more yeast.... But I could be wrong. But for future reference the top three points I could give that should avoid this problem again.....
SO2 at 50ppm not higher
When inoculate yeast it must show GREAT activity or do not pitch it.. Throw it out.
Temp of must must be 65 degree or warmer
Must temp must be within 15 degrees of yeast temp

Never had a launch go south..... After 100’s

 

[joshjacobsen]

I read through this thread pretty fast, but didn't see any reference to pH or TA? If you are at 1.110 still, unless your sg was higher when you started it, I doubt fermentation is underway. I have not found RC-212 to be finicky and has started for me every time I have used it. But one thing you might want to do is check the pH of the must. If it's too low you might not have success re-pitching.

If I missed the pH reference please disregard

Hi @pgentile - you're correct in that there was no pH/TA reference, see below for those figures and note the caveats:

Vineyard measurements
-Brix: 24.3
-TA: 8.4
-PH: 3.46
-Note: Represents 'average' of the entire vineyard at time of harvest

My measurements (using a Vinmetrica SC-300)
-Brix: 26
-TA: 6.8
-PH: 3.58
Note: I didn't blend my must (with skins included) as directed so the above #'s could supposedly be inaccurate as I instead strained/settled a sample primarily comprised primarily of juice

 

[joshjacobsen]

So since it sounds like you officially have a stuck fermentation I hope the suggestions given here get it going again. Although I have never had to deal with one the reading I spent time on was a little more involved then just pitching more yeast.... But I could be wrong. But for future reference the top three points I could give that should avoid this problem again.....
SO2 at 50ppm not higher
When inoculate yeast it must show GREAT activity or do not pitch it.. Throw it out.
Temp of must must be 65 degree or warmer
Must temp must be within 15 degrees of yeast temp

Never had a launch go south..... After 100’s

Thanks @sdelli, comments in response to your recommendations...

-S02 dosage was 50ppm
-The yeast starter definitely did NOT show great activity so good advice on not pitching it
-Temp of must might NOT have been 65F to start but is now at a 68-70F range so should be good there
-Must temp will be within 15F (I'd also seen mention of 10F) of yeast temp, appreciate the reminder as I'll make sure they're close

 

[joshjacobsen]

All - really appreciate everyone's help thus far, awesome community. Will post updates as I attempt round 2, here goes...

 

[stickman]

The rest of your must data is below.
Brix 24.3, pH 3.46, TA 8.4 g/l, Tartaric Acid 5.7 g/l, Malic Acid 4.2 g/l, YAN 450

I thought it was worth pointing out, that your must YAN (nutrient level) is very high at 450, so you don't need any additional nutrients.

 

[joshjacobsen]

The rest of your must data is below.
Brix 24.3, pH 3.46, TA 8.4 g/l, Tartaric Acid 5.7 g/l, Malic Acid 4.2 g/l, YAN 450

I thought it was worth pointing out, that your must YAN (nutrient level) is very high at 450, so you don't need any additional nutrients.

Thanks @stickman, I'd seen that YAN was 450 from the original figures provided by vineyard but I'm admittedly not as well versed on what a high vs. low YAN # is (probably something I could have learned w/ a simple Google search).

To clarify, when you say additional nutrients you're not referring to the yeast starter (in which I used GoFerm), correct? I assume you're simply saying that I can forego the use of Fermaid-O at onset and 1/3rd sugar depletion but let me know if that's not accurate.

 

[joshjacobsen]

All - no obvious signs of fermentation this morning but I only re-inoculated last night so that's seemingly normal.

I will say that the yeast starter was night and day compared to the first one (which showed zero activity). Lots of bubbles/foaming (see pics) so that's encouraging and possibly my culprit in having originally pitched something that may have been inactive.

 

[stickman]

You're correct, using GoFerm is fine, the Fermaid-O you added earlier should provide some vitamins that may be needed, it's not likely that more nutrients will be needed.