Finding YAN levels

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JimmyT

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I've been doing a lot of reading on nutrients and understand it pretty good I think. I hope after reading and rereading like 10 times I would grasp it lol. Anyways, I was wondering where everyone who pays attention to the YAN levels finds there info at? Any particular websites or other resources that's a go to or is it a crap shoot finding this info out?
 
Ok so I'm coming up with some things for this test batch that I'm trying and I need a little hand holding.
I'll be getting a special order port kit in September (hopefully) and wanted to do a practice run on a cheap batch to make sure I have the process down. I was planning a welches concentrate port for a cheap run. This will be my first go at chaptalization after my ferment starts and I have the formula down to figure the abv after the ferm.
What I need the hand holding on is the nutrient additions going by YAN levels. I'm confused a little on which to use and how much to use for my particular application. I'm not sure the YAN of welches juice concentrate to figure my total amount of YAN I need to make up with the nutrients. I know you start with go ferm but not sure how much. Then I'm not sure if I can use straight fermaid O for the whole thing or if I should start with fermaid k then at the 1/2-2/3 mark switch to the O. I did the formula from the nutrient sticky to come up with how much of ferm k, o and dap I'd need if using just that type of nutrient. I used 350ppm from the nutrient post that said 27brix you'll need 350ppm YAN. ImageUploadedByWine Making1435253600.834030.jpg
My goal is to push the yeast to the limit of 18% so I don't need as much brandy to fortify to 20%(if I decide to do that).
I guess I'm wanting to know your process of figuring out what to use, when to use it and how much to use. I've read these threads over and over but if I don't try to apply it I don't think it'll sink in as well.
The recipe is a mix of a couple different port recipes I've been looking at. This is just a rough one as of now.
3 gal batch
Per gal
4 cans welches concentrate
1/2c extra light dme
Sugar to sg of 1.120
1/2 tsp pectic enzyme
Acid blend as needed later
Nutrients as per this post!
Kmeta
Ec-1118
Oak later to taste
Start sg at 1.120 then ferm down to 1.010 then chap back to 1.030 the first time then keep chap back to 1.020 every time after til yeast give up.
Sorry for being long winded but trying to be thorough. Plus if anyone else is trying to figure out the YAN and how to apply which nutrients/and when to use this could be a good resource on the process. Thanks in advance!
 
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The YAN levels themselves, can be hard to track down. When it comes to raw fruits, sometimes you can find literature for that particular fruit that will actually give you some rough numbers to go off of - like I remember finding the numbers for YAN levels from highbush blueberries. So in that case, it would come down to the ripeness of the fruit at hand, to assume a percentage of the YAN levels listed in the scientific literature. For something like Welches, it's practically impossible. Either way, its still just a ballpark guessing-game. There is equipment to do the testing on YAN levels; I dont own any of that equipment to really speak on it, but I know they mostly test things in a juice form, so if one had the testing equipment, they could figure out the actual numbers to something like Welches.

That's kind of where that particular chart can come in handy. It gives you a base to start with. If your hydrometer measures out ~27 Brix, you can roughly assume that it's going to take ~350 ppm YAN to handle that amount of sugar. You can factor in the ingredients from there, and let your gut tell you whether or not you think you need to under or overshoot that 350 ppm YAN marker. The yeast choice also can play a role in that decision, but 1118 is pretty beastly once you get it going.

Since there's no real raw fruit included anywhere, I would personally overshoot that marker a little.

So you figure out, like you've done, the amount of YAN you need, and get that number into the number of grams for the product you're using. Then you've gotta decide how many steps you want to break your nutrient schedule into. There's always an addition after the lag phase, when the cap forms and fermentation really happens. But from there, it's sort of flexible. The yeast still need to eat, so you cant wait too long but if you want to only make 3 additions, you'd have one addition after the lag phase, another addition at say the half way point, and the last one when you chaptalized. These 3 additions would be larger in gram-size, as opposed to if you wanted to do 5 additions - lag phase, half way, and chaptalize three times. Same total grams, as you calculated, just split up into a different number of additions.

Go-Ferm is done per the instructions that it comes with, or if you're fermenting a larger batch there's an ratio (I believe its 1.25 grams Go-Ferm per gram of yeast, but dont quote me; its listed in the Yeast Nutrients sticky though) that you use. It's done during yeast rehydration and is separate from the rest of the nutrient additions.

Hope that helps a little bit
 
Yes it helped clarify a few things. For a concentrate like this would you start with go ferm to rehydrate yeast, then after the lag phase start with fermaid k, then at 1/2 use the k again then switch to the O when I start chaptalization?
Another thing, would you take the total YAN needs and split that in 3 then use the amount needed to reach that YAN number for what ever nutrient you use for that addition?
 
Your first question, is a really good way to go about it.

But no, you only need to know the amount of YAN you need, to figure out how many grams of which product you're using. Then you're just dividing up those grams. It's almost two different ways to go about the same thing, calculating it the YAN way that you're asking about might be more accurate, but the grams are easier to visualize for people, and its easier to work with.
 
An example of the way I was thinking is this ImageUploadedByWine Making1435293048.307796.jpg
These numbers would be per gallon. Is my math on the right track or am I way off base?
 
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And I just re read your 1st reply. How much would you overshoot the 350 mark since it's a concentrate? Is there a general rule or guideline you like to use when determining this? Like if it's concentrate use an extra 25 to start or if there's fresh fruit subtract 25 up front to start? So 375 or 325 altogether
 
I think.. You're thinking too hard, lol.

So, in one of your earlier posts, your math says you need ~19 grams of DAP, ~40 grams of Fermaid-K, or ~100 grams of Fermaid-O, to ferment the ~27 Brix / 350 ppm YAN..

So you'd split this into three additions, at least. So if your first two additions were Fermaid-K and your last addition was Fermaid-O, it would be:

1st: 13.33 grams Fermaid-K
2nd: 13.33 grams Fermaid-K

(40 grams for 3 gallons / 3 additions = 13.33 grams per addition, for 3 gallons)

3rd: 33.33 grams Fermaid-O

(100 grams for 3 gallons / 3 additions = 33.33 grams per addition, for 3 gallons)

So by overshooting, I'd round-up.

1st: 14 grams Fermaid-K
2nd: 14 grams Fermaid-K
3rd: 34 grams Fermaid-O

Maybe even add an extra gram per addition if you wanted to stack the odds, or thought that the fruit / concentrate you were using really lacked any nutritional value - its not about flavor, in all this, is the nutritional value - but if I wanted to undershoot the YAN because I had excellent fruit, then I'd round down instead.
 
That's what my math was saying lol. I forgot to right down per gallon on my paper but added in text after I had already posted. My number for the ferm k would be 13.248 for each addition and ferm O would be 33.117 so it's really close.
I do tend to over think things sometimes but I don't want to learn something wrong now then have to be told later that " oh you've been doing this incorrectly". I guess I was just looking for a generalized guideline to loosely follow. I'll learn to wing it a little more down the road lol.
Now the only thing I see getting me screwed up is deciding what nutrient to use and when to use it on different types of wines. I "guessed" right for this batch going from the info that you and Seth had posted about the nutrients so I might be ok for later!
 
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Another thing I just thought of is I'm starting off with around 27-28 brix but I'll be adding sugar probably close to 31 brix or so to get close to 18%. What YAN level would you shoot for for 31 brix? Judging by the nutrient post and your brix scale I'd guess 450?? That's if it stays linear like the example that you used.
 
I would probably treat it just like you mentioned, ~31 Brix / ~450 YAN. It's all approximations, to get you close enough nutrition-wise that you can feed the yeast without a stuck or funky fermentation. But it still really comes down to that actual fermentation, as they're all a little different; you've still gotta use your senses to taste and smell the fermentation, to make sure that your nutrient schedule isnt starving the yeast into throwing off flavors and aromas.

So dont take the numbers for gospel. Sometimes I get to that last nutrient additon, and notice that the wine is fermenting just fine and the SG keeps dropping every day, and theres no funky-ness coming from the primary - then i'll actually skip that last dose and let it ferment as far as it will with what it has left. Sometimes I get to that half-way addition and the fermentation has just seemed to chew through the nutrients so far with a big ol frothy cap, so I'll actually add a little extra nutrient.

The numbers get you in the ballpark, but your senses, gut feelings and intuition bring home the win.
 
Makes sense to me. Thanks for all the help deezil! I almost sent you a pm but figured I'd put it in a post to maybe help someone else if they are trying to figure out the same stuff. I do realize the formulas are just to get in the ballpark.
Would you recommend doing this type of nutrient schedule on a port style kit that I'm going to try and push through to 18%? I'd imagine since the kit is a concentrate it would be a similar process?!?!
 
No problem at all.
Anyone can always PM me about this nutrient / YAN stuff, as well.

1st: Fermaid-K
2nd: Fermaid-K
3rd Fermaid-O

This works for most any batch, unless you want to get more particular or are looking for a certain result. The amounts used will change based on the amount of YAN needed, from batch to batch.
 
On a typical batch when do you do these additions?
1st: end of lag phase
2nd: 1/3rd sugar depletion
3rd: 1/2-2/3 sugar depletion
Does this sound about right?
 
1st: After the lag phase, yeah.

2nd: Usually at half-way, but if your 3rd addition isnt organic nitrogen (Fermaid-O; so if you're doing 3 additions of Fermaid-K total) then you'd want to do this closer to the 1/3 mark, so that the 3rd addition was at half-way.

3rd: So if this is organic nitrogen (Fermaid-O), it can be added after the half-way mark, somewhere around the 2/3 sugar depletion mark; if its Fermaid-K or something thats inorganic, then its added at the half-way mark.


1st: After lag phase
2nd: 1/3 or 1/2 sugar depletion
3rd: 1/2 or 2/3 sugar depletion
 
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