Fining - A tale of two carboys...

[vinny]

Why is it capped?

I do this if a wine is in the 4-6 month range. You only need an airlock if your wine is degassing. It's technically a one way valve. I either cap or go to a solid bung. Then I don't have to worry about water levels.

Sometimes I'll add the extra security of plastic wrap and an elastic. I've pushed some to 6 month K-meta additions. I figure air is only getting in if I open it, so why disturb it.

 

[winemaker81]

I do this if a wine is in the 4-6 month range. You only need an airlock if your wine is degassing. It's technically a one way valve. I either cap or go to a solid bung. Then I don't have to worry about water levels.

Sometimes I'll add the extra security of plastic wrap and an elastic. I've pushed some to 6 month K-meta additions. I figure air is only getting in if I open it, so why disturb it.

If your storage area has temperature variation, you can blow the bung.

Regarding K-meta, light is also a source of oxidation, although if the carboy is unopened, going longer than 3 months between additions appears to be fine.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I measured pH today, which I haven't done since end of fermentation last October, when it was 3.15.

Today I measured 3.09 for the 5 gal (clear) carboy, 3.00 for the 7 gal (cloudy) carboy. I assume the drop in pH is due to partial cold stabilization over the winter months, though I have no insight as to why the different batches are different.

 

[winemaker81]

I measured pH today, which I haven't done since end of fermentation last October, when it was 3.15.

Today I measured 3.09 for the 5 gal (clear) carboy, 3.00 for the 7 gal (cloudy) carboy. I assume the drop in pH is due to partial cold stabilization over the winter months, though I have no insight as to why the different batches are different.

They may have been fermented together, but IIRC, the two were separated following fermentation. In effect, you have 2 different batches.

Keep in mind that wine doesn't mix as homogeneously as we may believe it does. When you separated into 2 containers, it's entirely possible you got difference fractions in each.

When pressing grapes post-fermentation, there are distinct differences between free run, lightly pressed, and hard pressed fractions. Even in those fractions, the wine is not guaranteed to be fully mixed.

Note that this is wholly conjecture on my part, but it appears to fit.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

They may have been fermented together, but IIRC, the two were separated following fermentation. In effect, you have 2 different batches.

Keep in mind that wine doesn't mix as homogeneously as we may believe it does. When you separated into 2 containers, it's entirely possible you got difference fractions in each.

That's entirely possible. I will have racked to each carboy sequentially (though I didn't record which was first), so it's likely that a bit more sediment ended up in one than the other.

 

[winemaker81]

That's entirely possible. I will have racked to each carboy sequentially (though I didn't record which was first), so it's likely that a bit more sediment ended up in one than the other.

Sediment could be a factor as well. Keep them separate and blind taste them in 3 months. The results may be interesting, or it may be that you currently have an anomaly that doesn't have long term effects. I'm looking forward to hearing about your results.

 

[balatonwine]

It was the best of wines, it was the worst of wines...

I thought most would get your Charles Dickens reference as per the OP post. So did not specifically reference it. But did not see any clear applaud, so I do so now.... Tale of Two Cities. Well done. To you both.

 

[balatonwine]

I measured pH today, which I haven't done since end of fermentation last October, when it was 3.15.

Today I measured 3.09 for the 5 gal (clear) carboy, 3.00 for the 7 gal (cloudy) carboy. I assume the drop in pH is due to partial cold stabilization over the winter months, though I have no insight as to why the different batches are different.

This year some of my wine is still cloudy. Very Unusual. But not without precedent. Who knows why... I do not.... It is unusual, but not impossible. Wine making is complicated. Sometimes a wine will simply not clarify. Either wait more, rack more to get it clear, bottle it "as is" and call it a varietal, or add a fining agent. It is up to you.

I like to say "hope this helps" but with such things, it ultimately is up to you. Because it is complicated.....

 

[vinny]

I thought most would get your Charles Dickens reference as per the OP post. So did not specifically reference it. But did not see any clear applaud, so I do so now.... Tale of Two Cities. Well done. To you both.

Thank you. I was gonna comment, I guess we can see which three people on this forum read the book.

 

[vinny]

If your storage area has temperature variation, you can blow the bung.

Regarding K-meta, light is also a source of oxidation, although if the carboy is unopened, going longer than 3 months between additions appears to be fine.

I don't wrap and elastic my caps, just the bungs for such an occasion.

 

[balatonwine]

Thank you. I was gonna comment, I guess we can see which three people on this forum read the book.

To steal your great start..... I may suggest:

It was the best of wines, it was the worst of wines, it was the age of k-meta, it was the age of natural ferment, it was the epoch of lets go for it, it was the epoch of cheap wine kits, it was the season of white wine, it was the season of red wine, it was the spring of early bud break, it was the winter of black rot, we had full carboys before us, we had empties carboys before us, we were all going direct to 100 points reviews, we were all going direct the other way--in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.

With a deep meh culpa and serious apologies to Charles Dickens....

 

[vinny]

With a deep meh culpa and serious apologies to Charles Dickens....

I am sure you are forgiven. If you are not having fun writing, you are doing it wrong! Anyone that appreciates the art should appreciate play of it.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

3 weeks on, the 5 gallon carboy is now sparkling clear but the 7 gal carboy remained very hazy. I know patience is the name of the game, but I had an opportunity to use a 0.45um filter and so that's what I did. I now have 2 lots of sparkling clear wine ready for bottling

 

[vinny]

3 weeks on, the 5 gallon carboy is now sparkling clear but the 7 gal carboy remained very hazy. I know patience is the name of the game, but I had an opportunity to use a 0.45um filter and so that's what I did. I now have 2 lots of sparkling clear wine ready for bottling

After enough time to only logical solution is pure brute force...

 

[balatonwine]

3 weeks on, the 5 gallon carboy is now sparkling clear but the 7 gal carboy remained very hazy. I know patience is the name of the game, but I had an opportunity to use a 0.45um filter and so that's what I did. I now have 2 lots of sparkling clear wine ready for bottling

But do they taste the same?

I ask, as every time I used a fining agent, the aroma and taste was different. And not in good way....

But I have never used a 0.45um filter. So would love to know if using such a filter affected aroma, and taste.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

After enough time to only logical solution is pure brute force...

It was like using the proverbial sledgehammer to crack a nut... this was a commercial grade sterile filter driven by an air pump with 1.5" hoses... it had previously been used to filter hundreds of gallons of wine and was about to be taken out of service in preparation for a new project next week. By the time all the hoses were full of my meagre 7 gallons, the source vessel was almost empty! We ended up draining the hoses and filter housing by pushing nitrogen through, so didn't lose a lot and hopefully didn't damage the wine.

But do they taste the same?
I ask, as every time I used a fining agent, the aroma and taste was different. And not in good way....
But I have never used a 0.45um filter. So would love to know if using such a filter affected aroma, and taste.

The reason for using a fining agent in the first place was based on a bench trial (blind) taste test. I wasn't overly bothered by the haziness - I have no plans to enter the wine in a competition or anything - but both my wife and I felt that the fruit aromas/flavor and texture were better in the fined sample.

I thought the flavor was fine after filtration but didn't do a rigorous before-after comparison. I also think it's hard to tell until the wine has had a few weeks to recover. It's a bit like bottle shock - no doubt the wine does get a bit beaten up by filtration and bottling, but it seems to 'reassemble' over time. (I work at the winery where I used the pump and filter and this is a consistent finding, whether red or white; tastes great in the tank, a bit disappointing immediately after filtration/bottling but back to its former glory in 6-8 weeks...)

Bottling tomorrow, so ask me around the start of July how it turned out

 

[BarrelMonkey]

So... I just did a head to head tasting of the 5 gal carboy (the clear one), the 7 gal carboy (the cloudy/filtered one) and the 7 gal with addition of ~12% of my 2022 blanc de noir base wine. (This is extra wine which I won't need for my upcoming sparkling bottling, and I've already reserved enough additional wine to take care of dosage down the road).

The 5 gal sample is the clear favorite at this stage; lovely stone fruit nose and flavors, mouthwatering acidity but with a soft texture. The 7 gal sample was by no means bad, but just a little flat in comparison? This is consistent with my previous comment that filtering does temporarily discombobulate (to use the technical term) the wine. The addition of the blanc de noir was a nice improvement so we're going to make that addition to the 7-gallon bulk wine and bottle the 5 gallon and 7 gallon lots as separate batches.