First time winemaking - typical rotten egg problem

[DrStrangeLove]

I been reading other posts on this problem and I don't know if what I have here is ruined or salvageable.. so here goes. Here's the story so far.

Malbec grapes
Forgot the name of the yeast I bought from the shop
Yielded about 6 gallons (2 x 3 gallon containers)

The primary fermentation appeared to have gone well. I punched the cap twice a day and it was fermenting nicely for 7 days. I did not test the sugar levels at this time. During this time it smelled...well it smelled like wine to be honest. It was kind of a sweet wine-like smell the whole time.

After 7 days I brought the must and juice over to a friend's place and we dumped out the juice. The rest of the must went into the press and it yielded about 6 gallons altogether as i stated above. I did not separate clean juice from crushed juice. I mixed them all together.

At this point, I filled 2 containers up and plugged in the stopper with the airlock inserted and took everything home. I placed it in my basement which is forever cool. I don't have the exact temps but I would estimate at the time it was around 65-70F down there. I'm in the northeast so its probably a little cooler down there now.

In any case, I let the juice continue to ferment in this stage for a little over 3 weeks undisturbed. As you probably can guess this is where the problems begin. I went to bring my containers up from the basement to rack them. Immediately upon grabbing each one the rotten egg smell assaulted my nostrils coming out of the airlock as I applied pressure to pick up the container. I was hoping it was just trapped gasses but unfortunately, that proved to the least of the problem.

Before siphoning I notice there were still tiny bubbles coming up to the top so I assume that was still some fermentation happening. As I started siphoning, the smell was notably coming from the wine itself. The whole batch smelled pretty damn unappealing. I tasted a tiny amount from each container. One was definitely not as bad as the other but neither of them were pleasant. I did notice there was plenty of alcohol (as much as can be expected in a wine). The level of alcohol seemed to me to be more or less right or nearly so. But the wine itself, to be frank, most definitely isn't something you want to be drinking with a beautifully cooked steak, to say the least.

There was about an inch of sediment at the bottom of the containers. I did my best to siphon without grabbing anything off the bottom. That seems to have gone just fine. During this whole racking process I did notice that a few seeds, maybe 10 or so, and one half a crushed grape somehow found their way into the containers. I got all that stuff out.

I cleaned and sanitized the original containers, added sulphites, and refilled them. The method I use to add sulphite isn't by a powder but I use a smoking method. I light up a piece of a sulfur stick and let it fill the containers with a thick thick smoke at which time I refill the containers. I replaced the stopper and airlock.

So at this point, I know this has probably been asked and answered many times but I've also seen numerous different answers to solve this. Like I said this is my first go around trying to make wine. Some folks said to go buy a special copper rod and give it a good stir with that. Others say the batch is lost. Other say try some other tactics. So, what should I try first? And how do I know if it worked? Should the smell disappear immediately?

Oh and one other question.. before racking the amount of empty space in the container consisted of basically only the neck of the container. Now its about 1/2 inch below the neck of the container. Is that too much empty space? Is the amount of air in there now going to be a problem as well?

Thanks in advance! Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Johnd]

I been reading other posts on this problem and I don't know if what I have here is ruined or salvageable.. so here goes. Here's the story so far.

Malbec grapes
Forgot the name of the yeast I bought from the shop
Yielded about 6 gallons (2 x 3 gallon containers)

The primary fermentation appeared to have gone well. I punched the cap twice a day and it was fermenting nicely for 7 days. I did not test the sugar levels at this time. During this time it smelled...well it smelled like wine to be honest. It was kind of a sweet wine-like smell the whole time.

After 7 days I brought the must and juice over to a friend's place and we dumped out the juice. The rest of the must went into the press and it yielded about 6 gallons altogether as i stated above. I did not separate clean juice from crushed juice. I mixed them all together.

At this point, I filled 2 containers up and plugged in the stopper with the airlock inserted and took everything home. I placed it in my basement which is forever cool. I don't have the exact temps but I would estimate at the time it was around 65-70F down there. I'm in the northeast so its probably a little cooler down there now.

In any case, I let the juice continue to ferment in this stage for a little over 3 weeks undisturbed. As you probably can guess this is where the problems begin. I went to bring my containers up from the basement to rack them. Immediately upon grabbing each one the rotten egg smell assaulted my nostrils coming out of the airlock as I applied pressure to pick up the container. I was hoping it was just trapped gasses but unfortunately, that proved to the least of the problem.

Before siphoning I notice there were still tiny bubbles coming up to the top so I assume that was still some fermentation happening. As I started siphoning, the smell was notably coming from the wine itself. The whole batch smelled pretty damn unappealing. I tasted a tiny amount from each container. One was definitely not as bad as the other but neither of them were pleasant. I did notice there was plenty of alcohol (as much as can be expected in a wine). The level of alcohol seemed to me to be more or less right or nearly so. But the wine itself, to be frank, most definitely isn't something you want to be drinking with a beautifully cooked steak, to say the least.

There was about an inch of sediment at the bottom of the containers. I did my best to siphon without grabbing anything off the bottom. That seems to have gone just fine. During this whole racking process I did notice that a few seeds, maybe 10 or so, and one half a crushed grape somehow found their way into the containers. I got all that stuff out.

I cleaned and sanitized the original containers, added sulphites, and refilled them. The method I use to add sulphite isn't by a powder but I use a smoking method. I light up a piece of a sulfur stick and let it fill the containers with a thick thick smoke at which time I refill the containers. I replaced the stopper and airlock.

So at this point, I know this has probably been asked and answered many times but I've also seen numerous different answers to solve this. Like I said this is my first go around trying to make wine. Some folks said to go buy a special copper rod and give it a good stir with that. Others say the batch is lost. Other say try some other tactics. So, what should I try first? And how do I know if it worked? Should the smell disappear immediately?

Oh and one other question.. before racking the amount of empty space in the container consisted of basically only the neck of the container. Now its about 1/2 inch below the neck of the container. Is that too much empty space? Is the amount of air in there now going to be a problem as well?

Thanks in advance! Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Seems you may have made one critical error, you didn’t rack off of the gross lees 2 - 3 days after pressing. Repeated splash racking may eliminate your problem, but if it doesn’t, you should consider purchasing Reduless: https://morewinemaking.com/products/reduless.html
and following the directions therein. I do not recommend putting copper products into wine, as there is no controlled dosage and copper is harmful if it is present in excessive quantities.

 

[user 36973]

I suspect you simply did not supply enough yeast nutrients to your yeast. Some strains are quite hungry for nutrients and produce H2S when they get stressed (e.g. RC212). So, next time I would add 0.5g/L of DAP halfway through the fermentation or 0.3g/L each of at the 1/3 and 2/3 points.

I have to disagree that sitting on the gross lees will cause this. (I just racked three tanks of wine yesterday that had been on gross lees for a month with no issues.) The reductive environment of the gross lees will exacerbate an existing issue stressing the yeast but not create it.

Totally agree though that your solution to your current problem is to use copper sulfate found in the reduless product or sold by itself as a 1% bottle. My advice is to follow the dosing carefully and go incrementally with the additions. Once the problem is gone, no need to add more. Best to treat sooner rather than later so that disulfides are not formed in your wine.

And don't splash rack. Not only can this lead to oxidation and increase risk of spoilage, but it may only solve the problem temporarily. H2S does not volatilize very easily so you don't get rid of it all. There is also one other major problem that can arise with splash racking that I'm spacing on now. Might be that it promotes forming disulfides that are harder to eliminate.

 

[DrStrangeLove]

@jgmillr1 @Johnd Thanks a lot for the replies.. I just ordered some. I assume you guys have used this stuff before.. What happens to this stuff after it works it's magic? it sinks to the bottom or remains suspended in the wine from then on?

Also, is this process hit or miss--is there a good chance I've ruined the wine?

 

[user 36973]

The copper sulfate will remove the H2S, guaranteed. The only tricky part is dosing enough to solve the problem without overdosing. When I've had to use it, I add the minimum amount to give me 0.5ppm copper (the legal limit), mix it in and let it sit for a day. I'll repeat as needed until I no longer notice the H2S.

The copper reacts with the sulfides and will drop as small black dust to the bottom of your carboy.

Your wine is not ruined. Just be sure to keep up with the Sulfites and minimize exposure to oxygen

 

[DrStrangeLove]

@jgmillr1 Thats great! Thanks!! Oh and since you mentioned exposure to oxygen, one of the other questions was about the amount of space left over in the container after this first racking. After removing the gross lees, there's an additional aprox 1/4 inch of airspace in the container. Is that something to be worried about? I would estimate its about 15-18 cubic inches of airspace in the container with the stopper in it if my mental math is operational. I'm also assuming over time, more gross lees sludge will be forming at the bottom. So how much airspace is tolerable. The container is this guy here:

https://www.amazon.com/Better-Bottle-Plastic-Carboy-Gallon/dp/B074D988ZB

 

[cmason1957]

I highly recommend starting with Reduless and dosing it up to two times. The one time I had an issue, I used it and it cleared it up in about 24-36 hours. Then a good racking and the wine was fine after that. With Reduless you don't have to do any trials to see how much to use. It gives you a pre-measured amount that is supposed to be what will usually work.

 

[user 36973]

After removing the gross lees, there's an additional aprox 1/4 inch of airspace in the container. Is that something to be worried about?

That sounds excellent. You just don't want the container to have a large volume of air. For sure, air will ruin your wine. I've heard of people adding glass marbles to make up the volume when they rack. As with everything, be sure you use food safe products.

 

[DrStrangeLove]

That sounds excellent. You just don't want the container to have a large volume of air. For sure, air will ruin your wine. I've heard of people adding glass marbles to make up the volume when they rack. As with everything, be sure you use food safe products.

MARBLES!

That's a great idea! I will likely do that as well if need be.

Some more questions, sorry, they just keep coming.. I really appreciate all the help!

In using Reduless, the instructions are pretty skimpy, they only speak on measurements. Based on some of the previous posts I am thinking that the proper way to do this is to measure out the correct amount of Reduless powder, dissolve in the appropriate amount of water, dump it into the wine and mix well to homogenize. So a few more questions on things that are unclear to me:

1) should I leave it out to the open air (eg. put it in a closed but non air-tight container) for 24-48 hours or however long it might take and check the smell every once in a while to see if the Reduless is working? I have a large plastic water/juice container with a small spigot which works great as an intermediate container that I use. Also, @cmason1957 mentioned multiple treatments, and a time frame of 24-36 hours. Not sure how long he waited to do a second treatment.

2) should I come back and stir the wine up occasionally while the Reduless is working its magic?

3) after all is said and done, assuming this is successful in removing the sulfides, and consequently the smell, do you folks this its necessary, when racking the wine back into it's airtight containers, do I need to go about it as carefully as when racking off the gross lees? I assume that unlike the very fine particulate of the gross lees, these particles of oxidized copper (or whatever it is that's left over from the process) are heavy enough that they will tend to stay at the bottom even if I pour it out slowly enough to get the wine back into the carboy without going through the siphoning process with a hose.

 

[cmason1957]

1) I would put it into a carboy, with an airlock on it, not in a non air-tight container. Here is usage information from the morewinemaking site.

To Use:
Dissolve Reduless in 10 times it's weight in water and add immediately to the wine. Stir the wine gently to ensure a thorough homogenization. Rack or filter after 72 hours.
Recommended Dosage:
0.4-0.6 g/gal. The maximum amount of copper that can be released into the wine using Reduless at the recommended dosage is 0.02 ppm.

2) Stirring is a good idea. Not vigorous, but gently just to keep it the reduless in suspension.

3) You want to siphon, not pour, but you can shove that racking cane right down to the bottom and not worry as much about potentially picking up some of the lees.

 

[stickman]

I wouldn't expose the wine to air during the process with Reduless. Here is a datasheet for using Reduless.

 

[DrStrangeLove]

@jgmillr1 @stickman @cmason1957 Alright then, I will put the recommended amount of Reduless mixture into the wine as prescribed, stir it up gently and then transfer it back into the carboy and put the airlock back on.. its going to make the occasional stirring a real pain because I'll have to do it through the neck of the carboy but I'll figure something out.

Hmm.. ok so I guess that's all there is to know about doing this.

Thanks guys!

Now some prayers for my wine would be greatly appreciated!!!

 

[cmason1957]

@jgmillr1 @stickman @cmason1957 Alright then, I will put the recommended amount of Reduless mixture into the wine as prescribed, stir it up gently and then transfer it back into the carboy and put the airlock back on.. its going to make the occasional stirring a real pain because I'll have to do it through the neck of the carboy but I'll figure something out.

Hmm.. ok so I guess that's all there is to know about doing this.

Thanks guys!

Now some prayers for my wine would be greatly appreciated!!!

If you don't have one of these, you really want to spend the about $5 US to get one, you turn it over and the non-spoon part should fit into the opening of your carboy. Your local Brew shop sells these as well, they aren't hard to find.

https://labelpeelers.com/28-inch-plastic-spoon/

 

[DrStrangeLove]

@cmason1957 Nice.. Ok, good stuff--I'll get one! Tell me, does it even make sense to take the wine out of its present container at all? I could just pour the Reduless mixture right into the carboy and stir it up with the long spoon and then just replace the airlock.. come back and stir it up a couple of times over the next day or so and then do another racking-- I think that's probably more efficient.

 

[cmason1957]

I would not rack it, I would stir it in. Sometimes, those of us who have been at this a somewhat long time forget that not everyone has all the fun toys we have.

 

[DrStrangeLove]

Ok.. i finally added the Reduless. When I opened the container this time, I noticed less of the sulfide smell after airing it out, more wine-like. The smell is still there for sure but not as bad. I used a stainless steel stirrer and gave it a good mixing after pouring in the Reduless and covered the carboy back up.. Someone mentioned to stir it up occasionally so I'll do that a couple of times a day for the next few days, then I'll rack it again.

If some of that smell remains, should I do this again? If so should I rack it first and then do it again or just leave it as-is and go for another round? or should I not do it again at all?

 

[user 36973]

If some of that smell remains, should I do this again?

If you continue to notice the odor then you are safe to dose again with the reduless. No need to rack until it is resolved. (Caveat, I've always just used copper sulfate directly rather than the reduless blend. Not that I believe there is difference in approach)

 

[NorCal]

If you continue to notice the odor then you are safe to dose again with the reduless. No need to rack until it is resolved. (Caveat, I've always just used copper sulfate directly rather than the reduless blend. Not that I believe there is difference in approach)

I’ve used redulees as well, whose active ingredient is...copper, which is why I also go straight to copper sulfate. There is a small and controlled amount of copper in redulees for a reason, you don’t want residual copper left in your wine. You can search the forum on how to do a proper bench trial.

 

[DrStrangeLove]

Wanted to post the results.. its been 72+ hours..stirring occasionally as prescribed. So the story so far is, I can still smell the rotten egg smell when I pull the airlock off the carboy. However, when I pull the stirring utensil out of the wine and smell that, i smell nothing but wine. So, I am thinking perhaps that smell is residual maybe on the open spaces of the carboy. What I think I will do next is rack the wine out, wash and sanitze the container thoroughly till that smell is most definitely gone, and then put the wine back into the carboy and leave it for 24 hours to see if the smell appears once more. If so, I'll dose is again with the Reduless. I'm hoping this will finally do the trick.

Also, one other thing.. when I open some brand of bottled wine, the smell is similar but much deeper and richer. Does the wine's aromas change and/or deepen over time with aging?

 

[DrStrangeLove]

@NorCal @jgmillr1 @cmason1957 @stickman

Seems its working better on one container than the other. But both are a little better than before. I racked both of them just now. One thing that I simply cannot understand is this:



I found this at the bottom of both containers.. I'm guessing since it was in both its some kind of byproduct of the Reduless but how/why? This is looks insane. These are hard calcified looking pieces of I have no idea what. These were definitely NOT there before. Does anyone have any idea what this is?