Finer Wine Kit FWK Fermentation - Reds

[sluff]

A couple of questions:
1.) At what temperature are you fermenting the FWK reds?

2.) The FWK instructions say to wait for 2 weeks after yeast is added to do the first racking. I know that after the lid is snapped on, CO2 will protect the wine. My concern is the floating skins bags starting to spoil or cause off flavors.

I would appreciate hearing any thoughts on this from experienced FWK makers.

 

[Ohio Bob]

A couple of questions:
1.) At what temperature are you fermenting the FWK reds?

2.) The FWK instructions say to wait for 2 weeks after yeast is added to do the first racking. I know that after the lid is snapped on, CO2 will protect the wine. My concern is the floating skins bags starting to spoil or cause off flavors.

I would appreciate hearing any thoughts on this from experienced FWK makers.

I ferment my FWK reds in the 68F basement with a heat belt on a timer. 30 minutes on, 30 minutes off, keeps the must around 72-74F.

2 weeks is a safe target. I also buy skin packs, to add to juice buckets, and leave them in for 4 weeks. I add malolactic bacteria around SG of 1.030, and the 4 weeks helps the malo to complete. I do not submerge the skin packs or anything like that, just let them float. You should be fine.

 

[sluff]

I ferment my FWK reds in the 68F basement with a heat belt on a timer. 30 minutes on, 30 minutes off, keeps the must around 72-74F.

2 weeks is a safe target. I also buy skin packs, to add to juice buckets, and leave them in for 4 weeks. I add malolactic bacteria around SG of 1.030, and the 4 weeks helps the malo to complete. I do not submerge the skin packs or anything like that, just let them float. You should be fine.

Thank you! Do you keep the must at 72-74F temp after the lid is locked down?

 

[Ohio Bob]

Thank you! Do you keep the must at 72-74F temp after the lid is locked down?

Yes, from the time the yeast is pitched until it’s racked 5 weeks later. Malo is very prone to slowing/shutting down if it’s cold.

 

[winemaker81]

I've fermented FWK at my cellar's ambient temperature, ranging from 62 to 72 F. If you make the overnight starter as the instructions state, your wine will ferment at any temperature of 60F and above.

Many moons ago I was taught to get wine off the gross lees ASAP. In recent years I learned of Extended Maceration (EM), which in Burgundy and other renowned place is performed up to 90 days. It sounds insane, but wines are left on the gross lees for 3 full months.

Since my first FWK 3+ years ago, I've done FWK, other kit brands, and grapes for 2 weeks before racking/pressing. These wines all turned out fine.

 

[sluff]

I've fermented FWK at my cellar's ambient temperature, ranging from 62 to 72 F. If you make the overnight starter as the instructions state, your wine will ferment at any temperature of 60F and above.

Many moons ago I was taught to get wine off the gross lees ASAP. In recent years I learned of Extended Maceration (EM), which in Burgundy and other renowned place is performed up to 90 days. It sounds insane, but wines are left on the gross lees for 3 full months.

Since my first FWK 3+ years ago, I've done FWK, other kit brands, and grapes for 2 weeks before racking/pressing. These wines all turned out fine.

Thanks! I have done a lot of FWK’s and have always pulled the skins and racked about 7 days in. I have also had mixed results… I am going to let this one go for another 7 days (out to a total of 2 weeks). This is a winery series kit (big investment) so I am hoping for the best..,

 

[Garagista]

A couple of questions:
1.) At what temperature are you fermenting the FWK reds?

2.) The FWK instructions say to wait for 2 weeks after yeast is added to do the first racking. I know that after the lid is snapped on, CO2 will protect the wine. My concern is the floating skins bags starting to spoil or cause off flavors.

I would appreciate hearing any thoughts on this from experienced FWK makers.

I make FWK on the hot side. I put the fermenters into a large storage bin filled with water and heat them with an aquarium heater and an inkbird thermostat. I keep it around 74 degrees until it is dry.

 

[Bmd2k1]

yeast starter, mid60's fermentation for 2 weeks...then rack for bulk aging....protocol works great for me!

 

[BPL]

I have made multiple FWK's both red and white. I have the benefit of a temperature controlled fermenting box for both heating and cooling musts. Most all my white wines, are fermented at ~65 to 67*F including country wines. I've tried a few reds at the lower temperature range and they turned out fantastically fruit forward but lighter in color and lower tannins. The later ones (reds) were fermented in the 75 to 78*F range, with less fruit forward, higher tannins and a slightly richer color. Following directions and leaving skin packs to soak for two weeks after yeast pitch has not been a problem.

What I can tell you is that I usually take extensive notes on all my wines and track multiple parameters, including gravity decay. Most yeasts finish fermenting close to dry when kept at ~75*F within 5-7 days. It takes roughly another 5 days or so for the gravity to drop COMPLETELY dry, for example, drop from .997 to ~.994 ish.

All the best with your kit.

Barry

 

[sluff]

I have made multiple FWK's both red and white. I have the benefit of a temperature controlled fermenting box for both heating and cooling musts. Most all my white wines, are fermented at ~65 to 67*F including country wines. I've tried a few reds at the lower temperature range and they turned out fantastically fruit forward but lighter in color and lower tannins. The later ones (reds) were fermented in the 75 to 78*F range, with less fruit forward, higher tannins and a slightly richer color. Following directions and leaving skin packs to soak for two weeks after yeast pitch has not been a problem.

What I can tell you is that I usually take extensive notes on all my wines and track multiple parameters, including gravity decay. Most yeasts finish fermenting close to dry when kept at ~75*F within 5-7 days. It takes roughly another 5 days or so for the gravity to drop COMPLETELY dry, for example, drop from .997 to ~.994 ish.

All the best with your kit.

Barry

Thank you Barry! I now know that I have been fermenting my reds at too low a temperature and I have not left them on the skins long enough. Have you had any issues with the FWK wines clearing? Even after a year of bulk again I have to hit them with a 2nd dose of Kirsosal & Chitosan….

 

[winemaker81]

Thank you Barry! I now know that I have been fermenting my reds at too low a temperature and I have not left them on the skins long enough. Have you had any issues with the FWK wines clearing? Even after a year of bulk again I have to hit them with a 2nd dose of Kirsosal & Chitosan….

I've made Forte kits with a maceration enzyme (Color Pro), and do all my reds with it as well. Maceration enzymes are great for enhancing color and body, and work fine on skin packs. Just another option.

If you had to hit a wine with a second dose of K&C after a year of bulk aging? That makes me scratch my head.

If you're bulk aging that long, try skipping the K&C.

 

[BPL]

Have you had any issues with the FWK wines clearing? Even after a year of bulk again I have to hit them with a 2nd dose of Kirsosal & Chitosan….

Yes, I have. The problem occurred in a FWK Chardonnay. The final gravity was ~1.00--more on that later. Of course, FWK's are "kit" wines, but IMO, almost identical to what comes from vineyards...meaning the juices are not manipulated as other pasteurized kits. So the problems with FWK's can come along with the issues of fresh/frozen musts and juices. Not many and not normal, but it can happen.

The good thing I learned from the FWK clearing issues is how gravity and the other components generated by yeast affect particulates. That lesson has helped with clearing country wines and prompted a change in my methods.

I sort of agree with Brian about using K&C. For example a wine with a FG of .992 or .990 is much easier to clear, than one with a FG of 1.01 or .998. I use K&C on >all< of my wines. My general process is to use K&C then observe the clearing. Full disclosure, my clearing is done at wine temperatures no higher than 60*F. I've found that K&C works better with cooler temps. For the observation part, if not clearing within 5 to 7 days, there is a "problem". My next steps depend on the wine, fruit used, and previous steps. In general though, time is your ally for clearing wines.

My "sort of agree" comment with Brian means time to allow clearing is not a cure all for wines. Fine particulates, may or may not drop to the bottom of the carboy depending on the density of the wine. The "depends" means a warmer temperature versus a cooler temperature. (The reason why beer makers "cold crash" their brews and wine makers COLD STABILIZE wine )

So, I hope my long winded answer helps with more insight for both clearing in general, and using FWK's. As with all wines, most things happen the same way, but nothing is set in stone.

Barry

 

[winemaker81]

My "sort of agree" comment with Brian means time to allow clearing is not a cure all for wines. Fine particulates, may or may not drop to the bottom of the carboy depending on the density of the wine. The "depends" means a warmer temperature versus a cooler temperature. (The reason why beer makers "cold crash" their brews and wine makers COLD STABILIZE wine )

We are mostly on the same page. Most wines clear with time, although the heavier the wine (higher FG), the longer it takes. And some do not clear without help. We differ in that I currently prefer a wait-n-see approach to clearing.

Two years ago I started a K&C test -- I bottled most of two different batches without fining agents, and treated a 19 liter carboy of each with K&C, and bottled a few weeks later. My test results are documented on my web site and we have a discussion thread on WMT:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/kieselsol-and-chitosan-test-results/

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/kieselsol-and-chitosan-test-results.77805/

I conducted several trials, both locally and with folks from the NVA area. The results are that K&C introduced a slight bitterness and reduced the aroma.

My son actually liked the fined wine better, as did others, so there is no clear cut answer.

In the discussion thread, it was noted that the amount of K&C included in kits is more than vendor recommendation. It's very likely that using less K&C than is included in kits will eliminate or reduce the bitterness/aroma problem my test identified. If you want to try an experiment, divide a batch in half and use full strength K&C in one and half strength in the other, then compare results. [You'd have to divide the K&C in 4 parts, adding 2 to one batch and 1 to the other.]

My takeaway is that I use fining agents only when I consider it necessary. For whites and mead, I will use a lower dose of bentonite, which also clears protein haze (something other fining agents don't). I haven't fined any reds since completing the test. If I find the need, I may use a reduced dose K&C, or something else, e.g., I'd read the descriptions and consider the wine I'm fining to make the decision.

 

[BPL]

We are mostly on the same page. Most wines clear with time, although the heavier the wine (higher FG), the longer it takes. And some do not clear without help. We differ in that I currently prefer a wait-n-see approach to clearing.

Two years ago I started a K&C test -- I bottled most of two different batches without fining agents, and treated a 19 liter carboy of each with K&C, and bottled a few weeks later. My test results are documented on my web site and we have a discussion thread on WMT:

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/kieselsol-and-chitosan-test-results/

https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/kieselsol-and-chitosan-test-results.77805/

I conducted several trials, both locally and with folks from the NVA area. The results are that K&C introduced a slight bitterness and reduced the aroma.

My son actually liked the fined wine better, as did others, so there is no clear cut answer.

In the discussion thread, it was noted that the amount of K&C included in kits is more than vendor recommendation. It's very likely that using less K&C than is included in kits will eliminate or reduce the bitterness/aroma problem my test identified. If you want to try an experiment, divide a batch in half and use full strength K&C in one and half strength in the other, then compare results. [You'd have to divide the K&C in 4 parts, adding 2 to one batch and 1 to the other.]

My takeaway is that I use fining agents only when I consider it necessary. For whites and mead, I will use a lower dose of bentonite, which also clears protein haze (something other fining agents don't). I haven't fined any reds since completing the test. If I find the need, I may use a reduced dose K&C, or something else, e.g., I'd read the descriptions and consider the wine I'm fining to make the decision.

Great answer! Thank you for the reply.

 

[BPL]

The results are that K&C introduced a slight bitterness and reduced the aroma.

I've heard this happens but never experienced it. I typically use a full package of Dual Fine/Super Kleer to 6 gallons. Any less of a volume, I ratio down the amounts. When I open a bottle of my wines, the aroma usually can be smelled across the room. I have not experienced the slight bitterness, but will be on the look out for it.

If you want to try an experiment, divide a batch in half and use full strength K&C in one and half strength in the other, then compare results

I'll give it a try. I just have not considered it. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm always willing to learn new techniques.

I'd read the descriptions and consider the wine I'm fining to make the decision.

Absolutely! Pear wine has always been my nemesis, especially when a high concentration of juices is involved. This discussion has me thinking about striking the K&C and going only with Bentonite, judiciously of course. After all, the way fining agents work, K&C specifically, is arranging ionic charges, making the particulates heavier and allowing them to fall to the bottom. Bentonite has similar properties but works a bit differently. Thanks again

Barr

 

[winemaker81]

I've heard this happens but never experienced it. I typically use a full package of Dual Fine/Super Kleer to 6 gallons. Any less of a volume, I ratio down the amounts. When I open a bottle of my wines, the aroma usually can be smelled across the room. I have not experienced the slight bitterness, but will be on the look out for it.

It's not a huge difference, but is noticeable in side-by-side testing. Otherwise you might suspect but you'd not be sure.

Regarding bentonite, I've used half and 2/3 the recommended dosage, and it worked fine. I won't say that's a ringing endorsement, but so far it's worked for me.

In other threads I mentioned an article I read in the Wine Spectator circa 1990. The author had a meal with the owner of a Bordeaux First Growth Chateau, and asked him about filtering. The Chateau had not publicly stated they started filtering, but the author nailed the year it started.

I couldn't do that, but it made it obvious to me that every decision we make as winemakers has consequences. This includes NOT filtering or fining. Food for thought.

 

[sluff]

Yes, I have. The problem occurred in a FWK Chardonnay. The final gravity was ~1.00--more on that later. Of course, FWK's are "kit" wines, but IMO, almost identical to what comes from vineyards...meaning the juices are not manipulated as other pasteurized kits. So the problems with FWK's can come along with the issues of fresh/frozen musts and juices. Not many and not normal, but it can happen.

The good thing I learned from the FWK clearing issues is how gravity and the other components generated by yeast affect particulates. That lesson has helped with clearing country wines and prompted a change in my methods.

I sort of agree with Brian about using K&C. For example a wine with a FG of .992 or .990 is much easier to clear, than one with a FG of 1.01 or .998. I use K&C on >all< of my wines. My general process is to use K&C then observe the clearing. Full disclosure, my clearing is done at wine temperatures no higher than 60*F. I've found that K&C works better with cooler temps. For the observation part, if not clearing within 5 to 7 days, there is a "problem". My next steps depend on the wine, fruit used, and previous steps. In general though, time is your ally for clearing wines.

My "sort of agree" comment with Brian means time to allow clearing is not a cure all for wines. Fine particulates, may or may not drop to the bottom of the carboy depending on the density of the wine. The "depends" means a warmer temperature versus a cooler temperature. (The reason why beer makers "cold crash" their brews and wine makers COLD STABILIZE wine )

So, I hope my long winded answer helps with more insight for both clearing in general, and using FWK's. As with all wines, most things happen the same way, but nothing is set in stone.

Barry

Thanks again Barry! I bulk age my wines for at least a year - so I completely agree that time will not always work to clear wine. What are your thoughts on using bentonite during primary fermentation on a FWK red (even though it is not called for, or included in the kit)?

 

[winemaker81]

Thanks again Barry! I bulk age my wines for at least a year - so I completely agree that time will not always work to clear wine. What are your thoughts on using bentonite during primary fermentation on a FWK red (even though it is not called for, or included in the kit)?

Bentonite was included in white kits to remove protein haze, which was a problem 30 years ago. Today, it's supposedly used to help the wine clear faster, for faster bottling. From what I've read, adding bentonite to reds pre-fermentation doesn't hurt color, but post fermentation it strips color.

If you are bulk aging reds for a year, I don't know of any advantage to adding bentonite pre-fermentation.

 

[BPL]

Thanks again Barry! I bulk age my wines for at least a year - so I completely agree that time will not always work to clear wine. What are your thoughts on using bentonite during primary fermentation on a FWK red (even though it is not called for, or included in the kit)?

Good discussion. As always, Bryan makes good points. We are definitely on the same page with this one.

After reading lots if information about Bentonite, including manufacturers spec sheets, documentation from testing, recommended dosing from prominent wine makers/specialists, and even discussions with PHD chemists that included Bentonite in their thesis, I have learned that Bentonite is generally not understood and often misused. The lack of understanding and misuse leads to rumors that just won't die!

A recent example is a 6 gallon kit white wine I used for testing (not FWK) included 30 grams of Bentonite. A generally accepted judicious dose of Bentonite added preferment ranges from 1 to 3.5 grams/gallon with 2.25 grams/gallon being average, so do the math. It was to be included preferment. Depending on the source, the dosage can be considerably higher. This example is given to point out what Bryan mentions about bottling faster.

To answer your question, IMO, Bentonite should not "be needed" for red wines. Will it help? I don't know. Will it hurt? I don't know that either. Will it strip color? I don't know, but my suspicion is, yes, it will strip color if not used correctly. How much color? Calibrated eyeballs (rumors) usually tell that story. I'm sure scientific evidence is out there though. The question should be asked along these lines is, "Can we taste color?"

This link gives some pretty good information about Bentonite, however, different sources of information provide opinions, numbers and usually conflicting results. Going forward, I suggest documenting what works best for you with your methods. I also suggest exploring and learning how to bench test wine samples for accurate doses of additives.

Barry

https://scottlab.com/fermenting-on-bentonite

 

[BPL]

Thanks again Barry! I bulk age my wines for at least a year - so I completely agree that time will not always work to clear wine. What are your thoughts on using bentonite during primary fermentation on a FWK red (even though it is not called for, or included in the kit)?

BTW, I should mention to follow kit directions. Going off the rails can produce unexpected results. Those results may lead going down a rabbit hole and ultimately destroying the batch of wine.