Grape quality impacts the wine - or is it the process

[Obelix]

Bought a perfect batch of Shiraz grapes in 2018. The wine turned perfect. Still have a few bottles.

Bought a so-so Zinfandel batch in 2019 The wine turned out tasty.

Bought a poor quality Zin in 2020 - the same guy - the weather conditions were bad. The wine was OK while young, but turned not so tasty after a year.

The next batch of Zin was again impacted by bad weather and I realised it would not be tasty.

I just made too much, and by the time I get to drink the 2021 It was in the bulk storage for 18 months.
A small amount I left aside for drinking was nice. But as the time pased it detoriated for the 180L in bulk storage.

Poor quality grapes, or too long in the bulk storage?

It is drinkable but it's nowhere re near as nice as the 2019 or the Shiraz.

 

[BigDaveK]

You can't beat good quality fruit. Fermentation conditions (yeast, temperature, etc) might help salvage a little but I don't know for sure. If I'm not happy with the fruit I don't make wine

 

[winemaker81]

Did you add K-meta periodically? That has an effect, well, rather, the lack of it.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Question? , , , did you know the grapes were poor quality? curious what test told you?
, , , , did you know the early lot was tasty? curious what test told you?

I do a lot of fruit wines which are missing something that grape folks just assume is there. My point of view is that if you know what you are missing you can add it back in from the chemical bottle or the fruit freezer.
Granted the vinters club brings grapes into town > does group crushes > and occasionally gets a 2018 truck (with mold?) which no one in the club could fix, , , , , but we had hints of an issue looking at the fruit.

 

[Obelix]

Did you add K-meta periodically? That has an effect, well, rather, the lack of it.

I added it when I stored it into a long term tank. Maybe added once in the next 12 months. But the lid was never opened outside that.
Maybe I should add it more often

 

[Obelix]

Question? , , , did you know the grapes were poor quality? curious what test told you?
, , , , did you know the early lot was tasty? curious what test told you?

I do a lot of fruit wines which are missing something that grape folks just assume is there. My point of view is that if you know what you are missing you can add it back in from the chemical bottle or the fruit freezer.
Granted the vinters club brings grapes into town > does group crushes > and occasionally gets a 2018 truck (with mold?) which no one in the club could fix, , , , , but we had hints of an issue looking at the fruit.

2020 - I didn't know. I ordered the fruit, and it was picked for me. The grape had passed the prime moment to be picked, and was impacted by a long stretch of hot weather (over 40C). Shrivelled somewhat.
It held OK for a while but I made too much in 2019 and did not try it regularly to realise anything changed.

2021 - the same vinyard - this time impacted by the rain in between hot days, just before the picking.
The grape did not look good.
I had a small tank aside from which I drunk young wine wich tasted good fir a while, then changed the taste.

As I write this, it feels more and more like an insufficient raking, and maybe more frequent kmeta.
Then again, a few bottles of Shiraz from 2018 - without any kmeta, still taste nice.
Go figure...

 

[Obelix]

Yes, 2023 went back to the grower who supplied the Shiraz, and (this time Grenache) grapes were looking perfect.
Just pressed it this morning.
If I mess this batch up we'll know it's my fault.

 

[Johnd]

My opinion is that great wines can only be made from great grapes, and that only happens when you have great fruit and get the process just right for that grape, that year. Poor and mediocre wines can be made from great grapes by poor winemaking decisions and processes. We see this every year when tasting results are released for wines from a specific vineyard. For example, multiple winemakers get their hands on Beckstoffer to Kalon Vineyard Cab grapes every year, same grapes for the most part, and produce wines of differing quality based upon tasting evaluations. The best winemaking decisions and processes for that crop, for that year, produce the best results, and because growing conditions are never identical, the grapes are different every year and require different winemaking, though I suspect it’s similar year to year.

Most of us don’t have access to the best fruit, so our endeavors are with fruit somewhere lower on the quality spectrum. In the past, I’ve forked out some bucks for the best fruit I could get my hands on, and made some pretty darn good wine, but certainly not on the level of the top wines produced from the region, and at a cost. I’ve made crappy wine from really good fruit.

I don’t believe that good wine can be made from poor fruit, nor great wine from mediocre fruit. Focus on making wine as good as it can be from the grapes you can reasonably obtain. The hard part is knowing what to do with the process to yield the best wine. In your case, realizing that you had inferior fruit one year that would be best made and consumed early, and making your decisions and process producing an early drinker, sounds like the way to have gone, hindsight being 20/20. Personally, I don’t have the talent or ability to taste grapes and figure that out, nor do I expect that I ever will.

Hard to say what might have been a better option for your batches that were lacking, but that’s the winemaking challenge, and sometimes, whether by skill or blind luck, we get it right.

 

[stickman]

@Johnd well said.

 

[balatonwine]

It is drinkable but it's nowhere re near as nice as the 2019 or the Shiraz.

To start, you can not really compare the ageing qualities of a Zin to a Shiraz. Different grapes. They will age differently.

You do have a few years of Zin. Which is good. But you did not really supply complete details of each year. You said the last batch aged bulk for 18 months... But how long did the other years bulk age? When did you bottle each vintage? What was the original Brix, TA, and pH of each year's wine? Etc. These things matter.

So saying a grape was bad, or not, really needs some numbers. How the grapes "looked" may be an indicator... or not. It would depend on how well your assessment of "look" correlated to wine quality. If you have photos that would allow others to judge.

The more details you provide, the better the replies can be to assist you. Hope this helps.

 

[distancerunner]

"Great wine starts in the vineyard."
/unknown

 

[Obelix]

My curse , if you want to call it a curse , is that I made too much.

So while 2019 was so nice, I made too much 0 could drink it for a long time so I neglected the 2020, and even more 2021.
The 2019 was in bulk storage between 6 and 12 months (3 kegs - bottled 2 months apart) - all good . The stuff in the bottles - still nice.

All 3 Zin batches were 23-24 BRIX.

The 2020 - much longer in the kegs - 12 months at least. 3 months in a big tank, then rake dot kegs, added sulphites. Was in the keggs between 8 and 18 monthss. The last keg probably 18 months - likely the one that tasted - no so good. The original 2020 batch was good. Then suddenly not so good.
The 2021 - after pressing, I did one rake - 3 days later to remove grosse lisse. After then , it stayed in the big tank (200L of wine) for 18 months. I think I added sulfites initally, then again after 12 months. Recently transferred to kegs. A few months ago.
2022 - skipped - too much wine in storage
2023 - only 2/3 of usual quantity - this time Grenache. 21 BRIX. 6 days in the VAT - pressed when the BRIX was zero. Raked from grosse lisse after 2.5 days. Will let it ferment for another 4 weeks, then add the sulphites.
Should I rake it again? Bottle it?
The kegs are still full of 2021...

All these issues, problems, and yet, I love this, and can imagine doing this for living

 

[NorCal]

The wine that I have made, whose quality ended up not being worth the time to make:
- poor quality grapes, specifically those with any sign of powdery mildew or bunch rot.
- 2nd wine (reusing skins, adding sugar + water)

 

[Rocky]

"You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Quick answer is both, fruit needs to be ripe enough but at the same time not overripe it’s a balancing act underripe and can be bitter, green and vegetal and acidic, overripe and can be flat and dull and tasteless or super jammy.

If you get fruit that is ideal how you process it does impact the flavors and aromas and end product, longer cold soaks produce more intense tannins, while cluster fermentation produces more tannins you also get more color with longer soaks. Malolactic fermentation changes the acid profile of the wine.

 

[Obelix]

The wine that I have made, whose quality ended up not being worth the time to make:
- poor quality grapes, specifically those with any sign of powdery mildew or bunch rot.
- 2nd wine (reusing skins, adding sugar + water)

2nd wine is pretty bad. Had been given some. It contains tannins, alcohol and headache.

 

[Rocky]

2nd wine is pretty bad. Had been given some. It contains tannins, alcohol and headache.

Years ago we made some very passable 2nd wine. My grandfather let the free run out of the fermenting barrels and we kept that wine "per la famiglia e buon amici." The skins were not removed from the barrels and, therefore, not pressed. Water and sugar were added to the barrel to restart the fermentation process. I have never tried to replicate the process but the wine was not bad.

 

[Hazelemere]

Bought a perfect batch of Shiraz grapes in 2018. The wine turned perfect. Still have a few bottles.

Bought a so-so Zinfandel batch in 2019 The wine turned out tasty.

Bought a poor quality Zin in 2020 - the same guy - the weather conditions were bad. The wine was OK while young, but turned not so tasty after a year.

The next batch of Zin was again impacted by bad weather and I realised it would not be tasty.

I just made too much, and by the time I get to drink the 2021 It was in the bulk storage for 18 months.
A small amount I left aside for drinking was nice. But as the time pased it detoriated for the 180L in bulk storage.

Poor quality grapes, or too long in the bulk storage?

It is drinkable but it's nowhere re near as nice as the 2019 or the Shiraz.

mostly poor quality

 

[winemaker81]

2nd wine is pretty bad. Had been given some. It contains tannins, alcohol and headache.

It depends on how it's made. I've made second run wine that you'd not believe is second run, and others that are light bodied. If you got a headache from drinking it, it's not because it's second run ...

Years ago we made some very passable 2nd wine. My grandfather let the free run out of the fermenting barrels and we kept that wine "per la famiglia e buon amici." The skins were not removed from the barrels and, therefore, not pressed. Water and sugar were added to the barrel to restart the fermentation process. I have never tried to replicate the process but the wine was not bad.

One of my mentors drained the free run wine, and did what you said, added water, sugar, tannin, and acid, and made the second run. He drained the free run from that (had two barrels for 1st run, one barrel for 2nd run), then pressed the pomace. He divided the "squeezin's" between the three barrels. His 2nd run was better than some folks 1st runs.

My 2019 second run (Merlot, Malbec, Zinfandel) was very good. I hard pressed the pomace from the 2nd run and it was surprisingly dark. The 2020 second run wasn't as good, but 2.5 years later it's not bad. It's lighter in color, body, and flavor.

 

[Hazelemere]

It depends on how it's made. I've made second run wine that you'd not believe is second run, and others that are light bodied. If you got a headache from drinking it, it's not because it's second run ...


One of my mentors drained the free run wine, and did what you said, added water, sugar, tannin, and acid, and made the second run. He drained the free run from that (had two barrels for 1st run, one barrel for 2nd run), then pressed the pomace. He divided the "squeezin's" between the three barrels. His 2nd run was better than some folks 1st runs.

My 2019 second run (Merlot, Malbec, Zinfandel) was very good. I hard pressed the pomace from the 2nd run and it was surprisingly dark. The 2020 second run wasn't as good, but 2.5 years later it's not bad. It's lighter in color, body, and flavor.

alcohol can extract histamines (biogenic amines) from seeds in a second run so in certain cases second run can give you a headache

some women get headaches from biogenic amines generated by malolactic bacteria especially in barrels.