Grape quality impacts the wine - or is it the process

[distancerunner]

We’ve made second run wines on several occasions. Some of it has been very good. The key items are lightly pressing the skins from the first run, leaving as many seeds out of the press as possible, and treating it like a first run wine. Run labs, make adjustments, ferment normally. Press lightly.

The yield will be approximately half of the first run, like Rocky stated above. If you‘re greedy the results will be weak and flavorless.

The resulting product won’t necessarily taste like the first run. But it will be good.

 

[tullamore]

the beauty about wine is - give a glass to 3-4 people - most of the time 3-4 of them has a different take on smell, taste, mid pallet, and Finnish - there's no right on wrong on smell or taste - unless its corked - then its bad
this is my take - u get what u pay for -
living in ontario canada - i have bought grapes from $55/lug to $95/lug
IMO u get what u pay for - the $55/lug is ok (we call it the cheap buzz wine) not for me
now my take is this - i like spending a little more and make a better wine - and yes the wine makers do have an impact
but if u start off with good quality grapes u are better off - once agin IMO - some people won't go to that $95/lug
after 35 years of wine making i tend to lean towards the higher end grapes - once agin IMO - to each their own
if u are going to make something and invest a lot of time - what not use the best ingredient u can get t start off with
as for the second run i get a higher end pails of juice and add to the skins that were pressed - the juice most defiantly makes a difference
once again IMO

 

[winemaker81]

alcohol can extract histamines (biogenic amines) from seeds in a second run so in certain cases second run can give you a headache

Where did you get info on this? I did general searches, plus searches on the AWRI, Florida and Geneva NY research sites, and found very little of use. Several sites state histamine is extracted from the skins, so reds are higher in histamine (by a LOT), but it wasn't clear if the writer understood what that meant, e.g., is histamine in the just the skins, or is it in the pomace (skin, pulp, seeds)? The AWRI had a brief statement about Chardonnay developing higher histamine levels after aging on the lees for 180 days.

I found nothing I'd call substantial, and a lot of pure hogwash, including several purveyors who claim their "natural wine" is either histamine free or "the lowest in the world".

 

[joeswine]

the beauty about wine is - give a glass to 3-4 people - most of the time 3-4 of them has a different take on smell, taste, mid pallet, and Finnish - there's no right on wrong on smell or taste - unless its corked - then its bad
this is my take - u get what u pay for -
living in ontario canada - i have bought grapes from $55/lug to $95/lug
IMO u get what u pay for - the $55/lug is ok (we call it the cheap buzz wine) not for me
now my take is this - i like spending a little more and make a better wine - and yes the wine makers do have an impact
but if u start off with good quality grapes u are better off - once agin IMO - some people won't go to that $95/lug
after 35 years of wine making i tend to lean towards the higher end grapes - once agin IMO - to each their own
if u are going to make something and invest a lot of time - what not use the best ingredient u can get t start off with
as for the second run i get a higher end pails of juice and add to the skins that were pressed - the juice most defiantly makes a difference
once again IMO

Yes indeed

 

[balatonwine]

Snip from OP comment above:

All 3 Zin batches were 23-24 BRIX.

Hate to say this, but far too much ambiguity there.

For example, Brix alone is not enough. A pH number is essential to get a Brix/pH ratio or a TA number to get a TA ratio, which is important for good wine making. That is, you may have an ideal Brix, but too low acidity to make a decent wine.

IMHO: To make good wine you need either a lot of experience, or a lot of good numbers about the grape chemistry. Given the later, you can adjust the chemistry if you know how. Which is what a lot of hobby wine makers do (understand the chemistry and adjust as needed to make a good wine***).

***And it can be a good wine*** I am not of those to think that only those that have 5 generations of wine makers in the family only can make a good wine based only on experience. Understanding the chemistry can easily shave off at least a generation or two...

*** Aging and racking is another issue....

 

[joeswine]

Snip from OP comment above:


Hate to say this, but far too much ambiguity there.

For example, Brix alone is not enough. A pH number is essential to get a Brix/pH ratio or a TA number to get a TA ratio, which is important for good wine making. That is, you may have an ideal Brix, but too low acidity to make a decent wine.

IMHO: To make good wine you need either a lot of experience, or a lot of good numbers about the grape chemistry. Given the later, you can adjust the chemistry if you know how. Which is what a lot of hobby wine makers do (understand the chemistry and adjust as needed to make a good wine***).

***And it can be a good wine*** I am not of those to think that only those that have 5 generations of wine makers in the family only can make a good wine based only on experience. Understanding the chemistry can easily shave off at least a generation or two...

*** Aging and racking is another issue....

All ther above . Your correct

 

[Hazelemere]

Where did you get info on this? I did general searches, plus searches on the AWRI, Florida and Geneva NY research sites, and found very little of use. Several sites state histamine is extracted from the skins, so reds are higher in histamine (by a LOT), but it wasn't clear if the writer understood what that meant, e.g., is histamine in the just the skins, or is it in the pomace (skin, pulp, seeds)? The AWRI had a brief statement about Chardonnay developing higher histamine levels after aging on the lees for 180 days.

I found nothing I'd call substantial, and a lot of pure hogwash, including several purveyors who claim their "natural wine" is either histamine free or "the lowest in the world".

histamine can be generated by malolactic bacteria from amino acids in proteins or from alcohol extraction of oak or seeds

 

[Nebbiolo020]

alcohol can extract histamines (biogenic amines) from seeds in a second run so in certain cases second run can give you a headache

some women get headaches from biogenic amines generated by malolactic bacteria especially in barrels.

Biogenic amines are the cause of most of the headaches people get from wine alongside tannins sulfites causing it is mostly a myth that people perpetuate.

You can get strains of malolactic bacteria like my favorite Laffort b7 direct that produce little or no amines and are preferred for reliable malolactic fermentation.

 

[Obelix]

Sorry. I was away for some weeks. Was not aware of responses.

Re:good grape
Tasted the new Grenache yesterday before I added sulphites. . Very, very nice
The grape was if a great quality.
So far so good.

About the 2nd run...

My experience with it was always poor.

With grappa too. Some people make grappa after they pressed the grapes, then add sugar and re-ferment.
Ugly taste and headache, so maybe it is sugar, or could be what Hazelemere said.

 

[cazz226]

It's been a hot season in Perth for grapes, if you don't mind me asking Obelix where do you source your grapes from here?

I do even smaller batches (~40kg) and often find it difficult to find consistently good grapes, I have one good supplier in Swan Valley and the remainder is always random vineyards or begging for excess.

 

[David Violante]

Biogenic amines are the cause of most of the headaches people get from wine alongside tannins sulfites causing it is mostly a myth that people perpetuate.

You can get strains of malolactic bacteria like my favorite Laffort b7 direct that produce little or no amines and are preferred for reliable malolactic fermentation.

An update from UCDavis on Quercitin (Nov 2023)
https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/news/why-do-some-people-get-headaches-drinking-red-wine

 

[David Violante]

For those interested here’s an article on Biogenic Amines:

https://www.wineenthusiast.com/cult...MIjvHwy53kgwMVj11HAR3qfgNjEAMYASAAEgLpyvD_BwE
This is an interesting topic for me as I love pathophysiology and my sister recently came over and didn’t want a red wine because “the tannins gave her a headache”. While I knew it to not really be true, I didn’t have a good answer either.

 

[winechef]

I do agree that the quality of the fruit will affect greatly. but i don't agree that only the best fruit can make a great wine, you can have a bad season and still make a high quality wine. there's always blending, adding flavors, and lots of tricks to build the layers to even a discerning pallette.

when you are lucky to get amazing grapes don't screw up but you can still make a great product with decent grapes.

you can make a great wine from totally inferior grapes,

 

[cazz226]

I do agree that the quality of the fruit will affect greatly. but i don't agree that only the best fruit can make a great wine, you can have a bad season and still make a high quality wine. there's always blending, adding flavors, and lots of tricks to build the layers to even a discerning pallette.

when you are lucky to get amazing grapes don't screw up but you can still make a great product with decent grapes.

you can make a great wine from totally inferior grapes,

I have only done a few very small batches at home, but I had a similar experience in terms of my first vintage the grapes were really good so I got quite a good result.
My next batch was a fair step down in terms of quality of grapes (from the same vineyard), and the wine wasn't as good even though I made less mistakes.

I assume there's a level that can be counteracted with skills learnt over many vintages and different challenges, but surely there's a limit to how much you can cover or improve inferior grapes.

 

[Rice_Guy]

The process of wine making is complex, there are layers in the chemistry and process which we are still learning about. As a food scientist there are branding games which companies play which don’t change taste but will create higher consumer satisfaction . And then there is you. Bitter seed tannins will taste less bitter if one has eaten salt on a salad or on a steak. My feeling is that we can make great wine with average fruit BUT,, it takes more work to correct the missing traits.

I assume there's a level that can be counteracted with skills learnt over many vintages and different challenges, but surely there's a limit to how much you can cover or improve inferior grapes.

one of the best wines I have done was a mulberry juice, done with the chemistry bottles open to add what would be missing on a big red grape. Lots of what resulted was dumb luck since balance is hard to do without practice runs as how much tannin/ which brand to add in. ALSO note that great wine is a moving target. The chemistry doesn’t stop because it is in a glass bottle. With grape you have an advantage in that you can assume basics like color or tannin are in a good range. With great grapes one can ignore a lot of traits.

Anyway welcome to wine making talk.

 

[winemaker81]

We have several definitions running in this thread. While it seems we agree that a lot can be done to beef up the fruit, there are limitations. My comments are with respect to grape wine, as non-grape is too wide a subject.

Sugar, acid, tannin, body etc. can be adjusted, but those are modifiers. The fruit must have a basic level of constituents with which to work, and those cannot be improved without adding something like concentrate. Blending works to address (mask or cancel) flaws, but it doesn't improve the underlying basis of the wine, e.g., the qualities that make Cabernet Sauvignon smell and taste like Cabernet Sauvignon.

IME poor quality fruit will not make better than an OK wine. On several occasions I purchased low quality fruit and could not make a good wine from it. Ya gotta have something to work with, and I didn't have it. In hindsight the one thing I might have done to improve it would be to use grape concentrate to chaptalize rather than sugar.

Decent quality fruit makes a good wine (good varietal/blend characteristics), and can be made into a very good wine with care and effort. The better the fruit, the higher the potential.

Consider that the best wineries cannot consistently produce classic wines. They have the best fruit, highly experienced winemakers, and the best facilities, and the most they can consistently do is make outstanding wines. While the folks on this forum would be quite pleased with regularly producing outstanding wines, for professionals it's a disappointment, especially on the balance sheet. For us this illustrates that we need to properly set our own expectations.

FYI, I ballpark judge wines on the Wine Spectator scale, which I listed in a post I wrote a few years back.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

I do agree that the quality of the fruit will affect greatly. but i don't agree that only the best fruit can make a great wine, you can have a bad season and still make a high quality wine. there's always blending, adding flavors, and lots of tricks to build the layers to even a discerning pallette.

when you are lucky to get amazing grapes don't screw up but you can still make a great product with decent grapes.

you can make a great wine from totally inferior grapes,

Things rarely go to plan, we had 1 bin of must that was fermenting at the winery go to vinegar the rest was okay. The issue is that it was a lot of wine to lose, and for us it’s our first vintage at the new winery and it’s also really good fruit 2023 was the best vintage in like 45 years so we really really feel the hit from losing like 160 gallons of wine

 

[Nebbiolo020]

We have several definitions running in this thread. While it seems we agree that a lot can be done to beef up the fruit, there are limitations. My comments are with respect to grape wine, as non-grape is too wide a subject.

Sugar, acid, tannin, body etc. can be adjusted, but those are modifiers. The fruit must have a basic level of constituents with which to work, and those cannot be improved without adding something like concentrate. Blending works to address (mask or cancel) flaws, but it doesn't improve the underlying basis of the wine, e.g., the qualities that make Cabernet Sauvignon smell and taste like Cabernet Sauvignon.

IME poor quality fruit will not make better than an OK wine. On several occasions I purchased low quality fruit and could not make a good wine from it. Ya gotta have something to work with, and I didn't have it. In hindsight the one thing I might have done to improve it would be to use grape concentrate to chaptalize rather than sugar.

Decent quality fruit makes a good wine (good varietal/blend characteristics), and can be made into a very good wine with care and effort. The better the fruit, the higher the potential.

Consider that the best wineries cannot consistently produce classic wines. They have the best fruit, highly experienced winemakers, and the best facilities, and the most they can consistently do is make outstanding wines. While the folks on this forum would be quite pleased with regularly producing outstanding wines, for professionals it's a disappointment, especially on the balance sheet. For us this illustrates that we need to properly set our own expectations.

FYI, I ballpark judge wines on the Wine Spectator scale, which I listed in a post I wrote a few years back.

I am fortunate without having the best gear to get nearly identical wines year after year which I have attributed to my process that is unique to me and to my skills. I have not had a total fail of a vintage yet minus 2022 when we did not get any grapes at all

 

[cazz226]

We have several definitions running in this thread. While it seems we agree that a lot can be done to beef up the fruit, there are limitations. My comments are with respect to grape wine, as non-grape is too wide a subject.

Sugar, acid, tannin, body etc. can be adjusted, but those are modifiers. The fruit must have a basic level of constituents with which to work, and those cannot be improved without adding something like concentrate. Blending works to address (mask or cancel) flaws, but it doesn't improve the underlying basis of the wine, e.g., the qualities that make Cabernet Sauvignon smell and taste like Cabernet Sauvignon.

IME poor quality fruit will not make better than an OK wine. On several occasions I purchased low quality fruit and could not make a good wine from it. Ya gotta have something to work with, and I didn't have it. In hindsight the one thing I might have done to improve it would be to use grape concentrate to chaptalize rather than sugar.

Decent quality fruit makes a good wine (good varietal/blend characteristics), and can be made into a very good wine with care and effort. The better the fruit, the higher the potential.

Consider that the best wineries cannot consistently produce classic wines. They have the best fruit, highly experienced winemakers, and the best facilities, and the most they can consistently do is make outstanding wines. While the folks on this forum would be quite pleased with regularly producing outstanding wines, for professionals it's a disappointment, especially on the balance sheet. For us this illustrates that we need to properly set our own expectations.

FYI, I ballpark judge wines on the Wine Spectator scale, which I listed in a post I wrote a few years back.

Thanks, that really lines up with my experience and what I've been told by those who work in the industry - which is the most you can 'lift' a wine is one level; i.e. if you have average grapes you can make a good wine, if you have good grapes you can make a great wine, etc.

I like your descriptions around ratings, although of course wine is very subjective.
I personally have a style I like to aim for, while others will get the grapes and make vastly different wines dependent on the fruit that year.
Ultimately we make wine for our own objectives, but if we want to make genuine comparisons then we need more objective input from others on the quality of our wine.

The biggest challenge I have is there isn't much of a market for home wine making here on the west coast of Australia, either grapes or equipment - hence my question to the OP Obelix (acknowledging the thread is old and they haven't been online for a while).

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Thanks, that really lines up with my experience and what I've been told by those who work in the industry - which is the most you can 'lift' a wine is one level; i.e. if you have average grapes you can make a good wine, if you have good grapes you can make a great wine, etc.

I like your descriptions around ratings, although of course wine is very subjective.
I personally have a style I like to aim for, while others will get the grapes and make vastly different wines dependent on the fruit that year.
Ultimately we make wine for our own objectives, but if we want to make genuine comparisons then we need more objective input from others on the quality of our wine.

The biggest challenge I have is there isn't much of a market for home wine making here on the west coast of Australia, either grapes or equipment - hence my question to the OP Obelix (acknowledging the thread is old and they haven't been online for a while).

For me, I pick and highlight a specific vineyard, and will try and show that vineyards profile every year but have been getting consistent wines out of a couple vineyards. Absolutely loving my Zinfandels from one vineyard.