Hard Cider Degassing Question

[RegionRat]

I have a 5 gal batch of hard cider I am getting ready to do a final racking. I plan on adding 3/4 cup corn sugar to prime it before bottling.

My question is this, should I degas it after I rack it? Wait a day or so then add priming sugar and then bottle. Or, should I just rack, prime, and bottle it?

Thanks in advance

RR

 

[Deezil]

Are you aiming to sweeten the wine or make sparkling hard cider?

'Priming' is a term used with carbonation of beer, mostly - but translates to making sparkling wines as well.. This requires some further fermentation..

Sweetening on the other hand, is adding sugar after stabilizing the wine, so you dont have any more fermentation..

Kinda pointless to degas a sparkling wine, but too much carbonation makes for a tricky situation too...

What you're to do, depends on what you're aiming for

 

[RegionRat]

Are you aiming to sweeten the wine or make sparkling hard cider?

'Priming' is a term used with carbonation of beer, mostly - but translates to making sparkling wines as well.. This requires some further fermentation..

Sweetening on the other hand, is adding sugar after stabilizing the wine, so you dont have any more fermentation..

Kinda pointless to degas a sparkling wine, but too much carbonation makes for a tricky situation too...

What you're to do, depends on what you're aiming for

I wasnt looking to sweeten the wine. Just trying to get a dry sparkling wine. I am not sure if I add addition sugar would there be " too much" carbonation when it ferments out and would there be excessive pressure in the bottles.

I feel if I degas then I would have more control over the final level of carbonation. I just dont want to screw it up.

JJ

 

[newby101]

I am at the same place as RegionRat, with 5 gallon hard cider almost dry, spec grav 1.0 and need help instructions to get a sparkling hard cider and how to bottle (cap in beer bottles?). Thanks for any suggestions!

 

[Deezil]

Ah okay so you are aiming for a sparkling wine

Degassing has its place, in helping clear wines and such.. And over-carbonation would result in "bottle bombs" - which doesnt sound like any fun to me.. But you're right that degassing would give you more control in the end-game, probably a good idea contrary to my earlier post

I know you'll want to use Champagne bottles - not regular wines bottles... And i read somewhere (on this forum, and elsewhere) that it can be anywhere from 12-18 grams of sugar per bottle (ive heard some commercial wineries go up to 24 grams, but...), to add the carbonation/sparkling effect.. Although i havent done it myself, so i'd wait for someone to confirm those numbers.

Theres a few write-ups in the Tutorial Section of the Forum..
I'm a fan of djrockinsteve's write up personally

With that method, you'd basically want a wine thats to the "Bulk Aging" stage, but hasnt been stabilized... If it wasnt cleared yet, you'd have excessive sediment in the bottles and would potentially create off flavors or ruin the batch entirely - some wines HAVE to be degassed, to clear in a timely manner enough for the yeast to be abundant enough that refermentation doesnt have any issues... Would suck to go through all the work just for some of the bottles to end up being sweetened instead of sparkling

Anywho - hope that helps a bit.. Lemme know if i can chime in again and confuse ya some more

 

[Pumpkinman]

Newby101,
If a sparkling hard cider is what you are after, then do not add Potassium Sorbate, you can treat it like a sparkling wine by adding a little sugar and yeast, but be sure to use champagne bottles, the pressure could easily be more than a regular cork and bottle can withstand.
I'm in the process of deciding whether I want a traditional or a sparkling hard cider, I may just do half and half.
You either just add sugar and bottle and hope for the best or you can follow the process for a sparkling wine.
As far as how much sugar and yeast to add to make sparkling wine...
First it depends on how sweet you would like the Hard Cider, this is based upon it having been fermented to dry.
It is highly recommended to not go over 5 Atm, Champagne bottles max out at 6 atm.

Between 11-16 oz per 5 gallon batch will put you in a safe range of 5 atm.
You will need to make a yeast starter. There are several different ways, this is probably the easiest.

YEAST STARTER
Remove approximately 2 quarts of Sweetend cider.
Add 1 to 2 teaspoons of yeast energizer and a packet of either Lalvin EC-1118, Red Star Premier Cuvee or Red Star Champagne yeast.
Mix well, cover (not tight) and place somewhere warm.
As soon as you have a very active fermentation going add this mixture back to the fermenter.

It could take up to 24 for the yeast to be ready to add back to the cider.
Once the cider is inoculated with the yeast, bottle it.

There a few different ways of doing this, I am using a sparkling wine type method, others may chime in and give different suggestions.

 

[RegionRat]

Ah okay so you are aiming for a sparkling wine

Degassing has its place, in helping clear wines and such.. And over-carbonation would result in "bottle bombs" - which doesnt sound like any fun to me.. But you're right that degassing would give you more control in the end-game, probably a good idea contrary to my earlier post

I know you'll want to use Champagne bottles - not regular wines bottles... And i read somewhere (on this forum, and elsewhere) that it can be anywhere from 12-18 grams of sugar per bottle (ive heard some commercial wineries go up to 24 grams, but...), to add the carbonation/sparkling effect.. Although i havent done it myself, so i'd wait for someone to confirm those numbers.

Theres a few write-ups in the Tutorial Section of the Forum..
I'm a fan of djrockinsteve's write up personally

With that method, you'd basically want a wine thats to the "Bulk Aging" stage, but hasnt been stabilized... If it wasnt cleared yet, you'd have excessive sediment in the bottles and would potentially create off flavors or ruin the batch entirely - some wines HAVE to be degassed, to clear in a timely manner enough for the yeast to be abundant enough that refermentation doesnt have any issues... Would suck to go through all the work just for some of the bottles to end up being sweetened instead of sparkling

Anywho - hope that helps a bit.. Lemme know if i can chime in again and confuse ya some more

Thank you for the response.

I read the link How To Make Sparkling Wine. There is one paragraph that is unclear to me:

Do not exceed 18 grams of sugar per 750ml bottle. (4 grams per litre). Suggest 16 grams per bottle to avoid bottles exploding. Use only quality champagne bottles not wine bottles. The pressure is too great for regular wine bottles and injury may occur.

What does the (4 gram per litre) part mean?

I think the process is a little more then I am willing to undertake right now.

The wine is at the bulk age stage and it has cleared nicely. It is sitting in a small amount of lee.

Based on what I have read and your response I think I am going to rack through a 1 micron filter, degas, the add 150gr Dextrose. That would be 8gr/L. Then I will bottle. I have 3 cases of 1L EZ Cap Beer Bottles. I think they will handle the pressure.

Any input would be helpful

RR

 

[Pumpkinman]

I apologize, it was late when I posted, you don't want to exceed 4 grams of sugar per liter, or 16 grams per gallon, I think that is 1/2 oz per gallon.
I'm not at my desk, but I'll check my math when I get home.
The easy way is to add priming sugar like beer brewers do.

 

[RegionRat]

I apologize, it was late when I posted, you don't want to exceed 4 grams of sugar per liter, or 16 grams per gallon, I think that is 1/2 oz per gallon.
I'm not at my desk, but I'll check my math when I get home.
The easy way is to add priming sugar like beer brewers do.

No problem Tom. I am at work now but when I get home I am going to weigh 3/4 cup of dextrose. A lot of things I have read say that is the amount to add at bottling.

http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/sugar_amounts.html

The above link says 3/4 cup raw sugar = 6oz or 187gr

5 gal = 19L so 187g/19L= 9.84g/l

So you think 187gr (3/4) cup would be too much for the 5 gallons?

Also, I was not going to add additional yeast. Was kinda hoping residual yeast would get the job done.

RR

 

[Deezil]

I read the link How To Make Sparkling Wine. There is one paragraph that is unclear to me:

Do not exceed 18 grams of sugar per 750ml bottle. (4 grams per litre). Suggest 16 grams per bottle to avoid bottles exploding. Use only quality champagne bottles not wine bottles. The pressure is too great for regular wine bottles and injury may occur.

What does the (4 gram per litre) part mean?

That could possibly be a typo on his part, I'm not sure.. Maybe he'll chime in.. I never caught that before, and i dunno how many times i've reread that article

Also, I was not going to add additional yeast. Was kinda hoping residual yeast would get the job done.

Yeah the object is to use residual yeast left in suspension, because you dont want a vigorous fermentation to happen within the bottles - that'll just blow the corks or the glass apart

I have 3 cases of 1L EZ Cap Beer Bottles. I think they will handle the pressure.

I think thats wishful thinking, myself.. Sounds like a good idea but i dont know if it'll actually work - might do some research on that and maybe call the manufacturer before i did it personally.. Champagne bottles are made with thicker glass than normal bottles, which helps hold up to the pressure, im not sure these EZ bottles are

Oh, another thing i wanted to mention although its not that big of a deal... Some have said (read: i havent used it myself) that corn sugar will impart a slightly different flavor than regular white sugar does, it might change your outcome.. Whether its better or worse, depends on what you're aiming for, but just thought i'd throw that out there

 

[RegionRat]

That could possibly be a typo on his part, I'm not sure.. Maybe he'll chime in.. I never caught that before, and i dunno how many times i've reread that article



Yeah the object is to use residual yeast left in suspension, because you dont want a vigorous fermentation to happen within the bottles - that'll just blow the corks or the glass apart



I think thats wishful thinking, myself.. Sounds like a good idea but i dont know if it'll actually work - might do some research on that and maybe call the manufacturer before i did it personally.. Champagne bottles are made with thicker glass than normal bottles, which helps hold up to the pressure, im not sure these EZ bottles are

Oh, another thing i wanted to mention although its not that big of a deal... Some have said (read: i havent used it myself) that corn sugar will impart a slightly different flavor than regular white sugar does, it might change your outcome.. Whether its better or worse, depends on what you're aiming for, but just thought i'd throw that out there

As for the bottles. there is no mention on their site as to the amount of pressure they will hold. I have sent them an email asking if their bottles can handle 6 atm. Their site does say the bottles they manufacture are "thicker glass then common beer bottles"

Here is their site:
http://www.ezcap.net/

As for the sugar I am using. The local wine making shop recommended I use it. I did use brown sugar in the original recipe. Maybe I should prime with brown sugar.

Any feedback on filtering through 1 micron filter?

On a side note, I like how you broke my quote up into a point by point reply.

RR

 

[Pumpkinman]

I am very familiar with these bottles, I think they will work if you are going to treat them like beer, meaning, adding sugar to add carbonation.

 

[RegionRat]

I just got a reply back from the bottle manufacture. This is a from Doug Arkell at EZ-Cap:

Our bottles are rated at 120 psi but by using dextrose for priming you can never be sure of the pressure that will create. Our bottles have been used by home brewers for a very long time and have had no real problems. If the pressure gets too high the washer will blow out from under the cap which is kind of like a pressure relief valve. Just be careful of the amount of sugar that you use.

As I have read that pressure under the cork is around 6 atm (14.7 X 6 = 88psi) I should be fine.

Just thought I would share.

RR

 

[RegionRat]

Update - Bottled

I degassed the cider today. It cleared nicely I must say. I then added 6oz dextrose to the wine and bottled. It all went smooth. The vacuum bottler I made worked like a champ.



I know some of you have mentioned that dextrose may add a funky taste but I figured I would follow the recipe for my first time and it called for dextrose.. I have three more batches in secondary now so I will be able to mess with those based on the outcome of this first batch.

Now it is time to let it sit and hopefully I will get a nice fermentation to carbonate it.

Again, thanks for all of your input. You are all making this learning experience a pleasure (and I have ALOT to learn).

RR