Hazy wine?

[Jeigh]

A friend that makes wine unloaded his extra stuff on me so I made my first batch of muscadine wine with his help. Made it at his house then took it back in a 6 gallon bucket with a nozzle. I let it ferment, stopped it when finished at 14%, and then added a fining agent. I left it in the bucket with the lid on tight for two months. When I opened the lid in November it had a thick feathery mass floating in it and was still hazy. I strained it, racked it in a carboy, then used another couple campden tablets and clarifier. It tastes fine, but it's still hazy a month later. Have I ruined this batch by not racking it sooner or is it something else entirely? Included is the bucket growth and the way it looks in the carboy now a month later. It began clearing up at first after moving it to the carboy and redoing the clarifier, but stopped clearing up again.

 

[winemaker81]

Welcome to WMT!

How did you stop the ferment?

How much headspace was in the bucket? You want to move the wine to a container with minimal headspace after pressing. If the carboy picture shows the level of wine, you need to move to a smaller container.

The wine tastes fine? I'll admit that's surprising, but in a good way.

 

[sour_grapes]

Welcome to WMT!

As Bryan said, in general, you don't want to expose finished wine to oxygen. You probably did so twice: once by leaving it in a bucket for months, and once by having a half-full carboy. If it were mine, I would rack to a smaller container, and let it rest for a while, making sure to add K-meta (Campden tablets or powder) every 6 mos. or so.

 

[Rice_Guy]

welcome to WMT

* oxygen is the enemy of alcohol, on a couple of ways. Initially oxygen will promote aerobic microbes. A floating layer says that something grew, which breathes oxygen. Most winemakers move the wine into a carboy or several gallon jugs to hold it someplace where it is protected from oxygen. , , , , A second issue with oxygen is that it chemically react with alcohol. This is OK initially making apple like notes and as it progresses more of a sharp apricot and as it progresses a burn when swallowing.
On my part I rack fruit wines when there is 1.020 or 1.030 sugar left. A tannic red grape I will have steeping in the pulp in a bucket or 120mm mouth glass till it is dry, about a week.
* turbidity in a finished wine is harder as in it could be 1) microbial growth as a wild lactic acid bacteria, 2) pectin as with an apple wine not treated with pectic breaking enzyme, 3) temperature changes, 4) protein comming out of solution usually white grape juice, 5) small particles that would drop over a year in a carboy, ,, other? ,,

All in all, wine is a preservative system. I don’t worry about food poisoning under pH 3.5 and grape falls there. As SourGrapes noted small containers/ reduced headspace will needed. Otherwise chemistry starts making off flavors. On my part I would bottle a wine that has spent nine +/- months in a carboy. Today I will be bottling a 1.5 year apple that hasn’t cleared. Well, it happens, , and I will need the carboy eventually, ,,, AND It tastes OK when sweetened. AND winter has time.

Next one will be better.

 

[Jeigh]

Headspace and oxygen then. Think it's possible to salvage this batch by using campden tablets and fining it one last time and moving it to smaller jugs?

When I say it tastes fine I mean it still tastes the same as it did when it finished fermenting so it doesn't taste off or sour. Hopefully that stays the same and it clears up in the smaller jugs.

 

[winemaker81]

Headspace and oxygen then. Think it's possible to salvage this batch by using campden tablets and fining it one last time and moving it to smaller jugs?

When I say it tastes fine I mean it still tastes the same as it did when it finished fermenting so it doesn't taste off or sour. Hopefully that stays the same and it clears up in the smaller jugs.

It's possible. I'd add 2 Campden per gallon (double dose) and fine it again. Let it rest for 1 to 2 weeks, then rack off the sediment.

My concern is that the wine is oxidizing. Once that happens, it's not fixable. If you wine is palatable, drink it sooner than later.

Note on SO2 -- Campden provide 50-60 ppm per 1 US gallon, so a double dose is 100-120 ppm. My guess is your wine has a lot of contaminants, including O2. SO2 combines with contaminants, rendering them harmless, so I expect a lot of the free SO2 will be used up quickly.

I've documented my 2024 fall winemaking efforts in the following post. It's a bit long, but talks through the winemaking process for 5 different batches of wine, using 4 grape varietals and 1 juice bucket varietal. This may help you better understand the overall process.

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/2024-wines-in-detail/

 

[Jeigh]

It's possible. I'd add 2 Campden per gallon (double dose) and fine it again. Let it rest for 1 to 2 weeks, then rack off the sediment.

My concern is that the wine is oxidizing. Once that happens, it's not fixable. If you wine is palatable, drink it sooner than later.

Note on SO2 -- Campden provide 50-60 ppm per 1 US gallon, so a double dose is 100-120 ppm. My guess is your wine has a lot of contaminants, including O2. SO2 combines with contaminants, rendering them harmless, so I expect a lot of the free SO2 will be used up quickly.

I've documented my 2024 fall winemaking efforts in the following post. It's a bit long, but talks through the winemaking process for 5 different batches of wine, using 4 grape varietals and 1 juice bucket varietal. This may help you better understand the overall process.

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/2024-wines-in-detail/

I'll do that then. If it still tastes fine when it comes clear I'll bottle it and give it away so it gets drunk before the taste goes off. Would be a challenge to drink 6 gallons by myself. When I pick my grapes this year I'll make sure I have a smaller carboy to put it in and rack it sooner.

 

[winemaker81]

Would be a challenge to drink 6 gallons by myself.

Have confidence in yourself!!!

 

[Ohio Bob]

I don’t believe anyone has commented on why and what the mass is. Unless I glossed over it.

I don’t believe you actually stopped the fermentation. Even if it was mostly done it was still generating CO2. When you added the fining agent, it not only grabbed loose particles, but the CO2 caused the coagulated mass to rise to the surface. You don’t say that you degassed it so I suspect there is still some CO2 protecting the wine.

What you have done so far, while not optimal, is not a death sentence for your wine. I suspect it will be fine.

 

[Jeigh]

I don’t believe anyone has commented on why and what the mass is. Unless I glossed over it.

I don’t believe you actually stopped the fermentation. Even if it was mostly done it was still generating CO2. When you added the fining agent, it not only grabbed loose particles, but the CO2 caused the coagulated mass to rise to the surface. You don’t say that you degassed it so I suspect there is still some CO2 protecting the wine.

What you have done so far, while not optimal, is not a death sentence for your wine. I suspect it will be fine.

I haven't degassed it, nor do I have the tool to do so. I just used campden tablets to stop the fermentation the first time. I had no bubbles at all in my air lock for the two months before I decides to move it to a carboy and noticed the mass.

I don't know if it matters but I also didn't crush my grapes. I used a three stage steamer to steam them and collected the juice that way.

 

[winemaker81]

I didn't have a clue what the mass is, but Bob may be correct.

For simple degassing, stir the wine for 1 to 2 minutes with a large, sanitized spoon.

I just used campden tablets to stop the fermentation the first time.

K-meta (Campden) does NOT stop fermentation. Not unless you add enough to make the wine undrinkable.

I don't know if it matters but I also didn't crush my grapes. I used a three stage steamer to steam them and collected the juice that way.

Before you add a fining agent, add a double or triple does of pectic enzyme. Grapes supposedly don't have a lot of pectic, but the haze could be pectin haze. Heat activates pectin.

 

[Jeigh]

I didn't have a clue what the mass is, but Bob may be correct.

For simple degassing, stir the wine for 1 to 2 minutes with a large, sanitized spoon.


K-meta (Campden) does NOT stop fermentation. Not unless you add enough to make the wine undrinkable.


Before you add a fining agent, add a double or triple does of pectic enzyme. Grapes supposedly don't have a lot of pectic, but the haze could be pectin haze. Heat activates pectin.

I didn't know that. The guy I got my stuff from said Campden did stop fermentation. It could be still fermenting but I don't have any bubbles and haven't for months. In total I've put in 4 tablets for my 6 gallons. Two when I first wanted to stop it and fine it, and 2 after I removed the mass and re-fined it.

Pectin huh? I'll see if the wine shop has some of that enzyme and order it if they don't.

 

[winemaker81]

I didn't know that. The guy I got my stuff from said Campden did stop fermentation. It could be still fermenting but I don't have any bubbles and haven't for months. In total I've put in 4 tablets for my 6 gallons. Two when I first wanted to stop it and fine it, and 2 after I removed the mass and re-fined it.

You might be amazed at the level of misinformation about winemaking.

Potassium metabisulfite (K-meta), the active ingredient in Campden tablets, releases SO2 into the wine, which acts as I mentioned above. A tablet produces 50-60 ppm in 1 US gallon, so a normal dosage for 6 gallons is 6 tablets. The amount you added would not make the yeast raise an eye brow, if it had one.

If you're making large batches, buy K-meta powder. It's cheaper than tablets and you don't have to crush it. The standard dosage is 1/4 tsp in 19-23 liters of wine (5-6 US gallons).

Regardless how this batch turns out, don't be discouraged. Do your reading before the next batch, and things will go easier.

All of us who have replied to your post all have decades of experience, yet all of us are continuing to learn. There's always something more.

 

[Jeigh]

You might be amazed at the level of misinformation about winemaking.

Potassium metabisulfite (K-meta), the active ingredient in Campden tablets, releases SO2 into the wine, which acts as I mentioned above. A tablet produces 50-60 ppm in 1 US gallon, so a normal dosage for 6 gallons is 6 tablets. The amount you added would not make the yeast raise an eye brow, if it had one.

If you're making large batches, buy K-meta powder. It's cheaper than tablets and you don't have to crush it. The standard dosage is 1/4 tsp in 19-23 liters of wine (5-6 US gallons).

Regardless how this batch turns out, don't be discouraged. Do your reading before the next batch, and things will go easier.

All of us who have replied to your post all have decades of experience, yet all of us are continuing to learn. There's always something more.

K meta powder, pectin enzyme. I'll play with this batch based on what's been posted and see what it does. Come August when my grapes come ripe again I'll keep this all in mind.