I've been home brewing beer and wine for 30 plus years. For the last 14 years I've been growing my grapes for wine, as well as acquiring fruit for making wines in large primarys (25gal+) over the last few years I've had issues when sterilizing on the front end, I've used sodium metabisulfate with excellent success exclusively only now I've had issues with over/under sulfateing, even though the scale is not wrong, i use a ingredient based gram-per-litre that has provided rock solid consistency since before I started, I've spoke to my supplier of sulfate and he is not aware of any consistency issues, yet I have still been experiencing the issue of over or under sulfateing, so im still scratching my head...has anyone else had this issue?
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My K metabisulphite is typically 0.20 grams per gallo, that is using a balance with two place accuracy. If I was over sulphiting I would probably wind up tasting it,,,, nominally 100ppm but some are super tasters that pick it out at lower dosages. , , , Do you use a two place scale? , , how are you determining that it is over sulphited? , , , early in the process it should not matter since it is consumed but when bottled folks who are sensitive will taste it.
My K metabisulphite is typically 0.20 grams per gallo, that is using a balance with two place accuracy. If I was over sulphiting I would probably wind up tasting it,,,, nominally 100ppm but some are super tasters that pick it out at lower dosages. , , , Do you use a two place scale? , , how are you determining that it is over sulphited? , , , early in the process it should not matter since it is consumed but when bottled folks who are sensitive will taste it.
Ya we are pretty close, I started on the front with 90lbs of blueberries a 25 gallon primary, nominal yield of aprox 20 gal. 0.15 gpg mbs and it was not enough to stop wild fermentation, kept hitting it with .05gpg and wound up at 0.35 gpg before it stopped, I didn't pitch yeast yet...but now I've got too much sulfate because it keeps stalling out in a separate container (half gal) and dieing off...this is after 3 days, I don't want 25gal of waste wort, I figure if I whip it and let it breath it will take about 5-7 days. Ideas? Fruit natural aggressive yeast?
Could you please share with us what observations you have made that make you believe that you have either under- or over-sulfited?
I believe I have over sulfated in order to stop natural fermentation because I'm unable to start a vintners yeast culture in a separate vessel with whats been removed to pitch into my wort/must, culture is responds well initially then sinks and no activity is realized, I'm going to test ph, acidity, enviroment perhaps I missed something .
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I believe I've found the issue, my digital thermometer was reading incorrectly, probly due to age, it was reading 10 f higher than normal when I checked it with a float thermometer must temp was at 62, brrr too cold for yeast. I did check sulfate ppm level with a ppm meter and it was at 172 ppm, a little high for my liking but not a detrimental level on the front end, and also not likely to kill off a hearty wine yeast culture. Let this be a lesson to all, if something is not right, Check the basics using methods not normally used, to rule out equipment malfunctions, then work the problem, never assume. 
@mikewatknis727, yes I'm aware of that test method, but I prefer to use an analog salination meter, tough to find these days, but very accurate. Also not effected by temp, As sO2 is a form of salt like sO4, nO3, kh2pO4, ect and normally the only salination found in wines is what is added, tannins are not the same as sO2 but provide the same flavor effect, I've found this method to be much more reliable and easier to use. That being said I had to wait for my green house friend to get back from holidays to borrow his, what are friends for if you can't use them every once in a while, besides, he likes my wine, He knows when I show up with a bottle or two for him I need something and corks for favors is always a good trade. lol.
I am surprised you had a wild ferment going in the batch but a commercial yeast did not start. Did you drop the temp?
Maheesh
Senior Member
Do you mind sharing what brand that salinity meter is, and is there a formula due to convert to ppm?
Natural temperature drop, had a couple cool nights, and missed it. And the salinity meter I've been using is pretty old so I'm pretty sure the name of it has worn off, but any digital meter would more than likely be sufficient as long as its calibrated properly and not contaminated, make sure its clean with no build-up on it. but people please be aware that a salination meter does as its name implies, it does not read alot of other things that can effect your brewing ambitions.
@Maheesh ,Sorry I missed your question, no special formula it reads total dissolved solids, but does miss sugars as well as others. It uses electrical current to check salt levels in liquid as salts are a mineral that are conductive and provide a greater path for electrical current in water, the meter reads the increase and calculates it into a ppm reading.
It could also be done with a multi-meter and math, something that i do know how to do but why...thats why they make meters...
It could also be done with a multi-meter and math, something that i do know how to do but why...thats why they make meters...
@Snafflebit , the wild fermentation started as soon as the berries were crushed, I had to stop the wild fermentation in order to not have vinegar with s02, I then waited 3 days for the levels to drop but could not get a pitchable culture, and still can't, I suspect I've missed something else, but we shall see, don't want to jump the gun with guesses.
Yep I've figured it out, I've been using sodium metibisulfate (Na2S2O5) to halt wild fermentation, while this can be a very effective for sterilizing equipment as well as killing off natural yeast fermentation too much will make it almost impossible to start a healthy culture, due to the salt content that stayes in suspension with the sulfates, and over time will slowly dissipate and drop, potassium metibisulfate (K2S2O5) lacks the sodium content and instead uses potassium that too states in suspension and too much of it means your making more wine to dilute the content or dumping and starting over, once its there it does not go away. So in actuality I didn't over sulfate, I over salinated, I'll have to add more fruit and water it down to get the salt levels below 110 ppm for a healthy culture environment. Hopefully i don't run out of head space....thanks too all for your questions, in answering them I've found my issues. Cheers!
Just so you know, the chemical in all of the occurrences in your posts so far is "sulfite." This is SO3. If this is oxidized to SO4, it is then "sulfate."
On a different note, I think you are vastly overstating the importance of salinity vs. sulfite level in your must.
On a different note, I think you are vastly overstating the importance of salinity vs. sulfite level in your must.
Did you read my last post where I corrected my previous errors and even put the chemical compositions of both compounds, I may have not used the correct spelling and if this caused confusion, my bad. I hope it was not too confusing for the pros out there.
All and all I believe the issues are realized and appropriate steps to correct my problem are in the works, thank you for the input, I do appreciate it.
* I am using potassium metabisulphite, the sodium will work as well BUT will not create wine crystals, potassium mono hydrate tartrate. There also could be a salty flavor going along with sodium.
* 172 ppm free SO2 will kill purchased yeast as well as wild yeast. ,,,,, My attitude is a bit on the historical side, ie “why bother trying to create a sterile must?”. A wine fermentation is a series of selective fences, ex pH less than 4 keeps out anaerobic food poisoning organisms, being anaerobic keeps most families from growing, ,,,, etc
* free SO2 can be reduced/ removed by splash racking or waiting for it to be consumed
you have access to some nice lab toys.
* 172 ppm free SO2 will kill purchased yeast as well as wild yeast. ,,,,, My attitude is a bit on the historical side, ie “why bother trying to create a sterile must?”. A wine fermentation is a series of selective fences, ex pH less than 4 keeps out anaerobic food poisoning organisms, being anaerobic keeps most families from growing, ,,,, etc
* free SO2 can be reduced/ removed by splash racking or waiting for it to be consumed
you have access to some nice lab toys.Yes, I'm aware of splash racking, but I need something other than must in order to rack , I have in the past just splashed and let it breath but time could become a factor, I figured alkalinity might be an issue with blueberries as per elderberry but the fruit acid took care of that concern, temperature was a major contributing factor and the amount of sodium, I really like my greenhouse friend, he's got the coolest toys. I've already started to add more to the primary must to lower the ppm to a more hospitable environment, and should see some more positive results soon! I too appreciate the simplicity of a untouched example of wine and have had far better luck with my grapes then any other, its an Italian white from the north my father managed to sneak home, God bless him. And it is truly special, But I didn't get enough fruit this year to be of consequence so figured I'd go on the wild side with the blueberries, My goodness there are some brite stars out there after all, thank you and Cheers!* I am using potassium metabisulphite, the sodium will work as well BUT will not create wine crystals, potassium mono hydrate tartrate. There also could be a salty flavor going along with sodium.
* 172 ppm free SO2 will kill purchased yeast as well as wild yeast. ,,,,, My attitude is a bit on the historical side, ie “why bother trying to create a sterile must?”. A wine fermentation is a series of selective fences, ex pH less than 4 keeps out anaerobic food poisoning organisms, being anaerobic keeps most families from growing, ,,,, etc
* free SO2 can be reduced/ removed by splash racking or waiting for it to be consumed
I was not confused. I was trying to help you by teaching you the correct terminology.
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