Help, About to start 1st blackberry wine

[RadRob]

I started making wine last year and made a few batches but haven't made any in about 9 months and forgot most of what I learned so this is like starting over again but I'm in a rush since the fruit and juice is thawed out as of this morning.

I had to do an emergency defrost on the freezer and the blackberries started thawing and I didn't want to lose 5 gallons of fresh berries. I also have 2 gallons of juiced blackberries which yielded about 4 gallons total of juice.

I found the thread from vernsgal and read through that twice but want to make sure I don't screw this up so I'm asking for help.

Does it matter that I'm using frozen berries and juice? Do I need to do something different than this to get started?

day 1 Add Pectic Enzyme and K-meta
day 2 set brix, PH & pitch yeast
day 3 Add Bentonite

Thanks in advance!!

Rob

 

[Stressbaby]

I've always had to make additions to reduce the acid in my straight blackberry wines, so I'd be prepared to do that.

 

[Intheswamp]

Experienced folks say that freezing the fruit actually breaks down the cell structure and makes the fruit more easily fermented.

For k-meta and pectic enzyme the way I understand it is to add the k-meta and wait 12 hours. Then add the pectin and wait another 12 hours. After this, yeast can then be pitched.

 

[Intheswamp]

Btw, that must looks GREAT!!!!!

 

[beano]

Does it matter that I'm using frozen berries and juice?

Rob, frozen blackberries are all I use. Never a problem. I can get frozen by the pound cheaper than fresh.

 

[RadRob]

Thanks Guys!
These are all fresh from the garden so free is great. Does it make a difference using a steam juicer? My sister makes and sells jellies and jam, she just told me I can have all of the older juice that's been in the freezer for 2 years. I think there's about 6 more gallons of pear, Japanese plum(loquat) and more blackberry juice.

 

[Scooter68]

Actually Pectic enzyme should be the FIRST thing added to the fruit, before water, K-meta, anything. The sooner that gets busy working on the fruit, the faster all that flavor and sugar will be ready for wine making. Not sure that it do any good to add before freezing fruit, but; most definitely add it to the bucket of thawing fruit.

 

[Intheswamp]

Actually Pectic enzyme should be the FIRST thing added to the fruit, before water, K-meta, anything. The sooner that gets busy working on the fruit, the faster all that flavor and sugar will be ready for wine making. Not sure that it do any good to add before freezing fruit, but; most definitely add it to the bucket of thawing fruit.

Now I'm kind of confused on which comes first, the chicken, er, uh, the k-meta or the pectic enzyme. Here is a quote from Keller's website (underline emphasis is mine). This is where I got my order of ingredients from:
"Pectic enzyme is an additive to most fruit and berry musts. It not only breaks down natural pectin found in most fruit, but also helps break down the cell walls in the pulp and skins and make it easier to extract the flavors, aromas, acids, tannins and other and components that contribute to the complexity of finished and aged wines. It is best to wait a few hours after adding sulfites (Campden tablets or potassium metabisulfite) before adding pectic enzyme, as its action is retarded by an excess of sulfur dioxide. After 8-10 hours, however, it is quite safe to add it. It comes in either liquid or powdered form. The liquid is more concentrated and preferred by commercial winemakers, but it has a very finite shelf life and must be refrigerated to even achieve that. It also varies in strength from different manufacturers and cannot be reliably included in recipes, whereas the powdered form is fairly constant among manufacturers, does not require refrigeration, and can be kept for several years without losing its ability to reduce pectin. Pectic enzyme works best at cooler temperatures. Do not add it to musts above 75 degrees F."
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/adding.asp

 

[cmason1957]

I always add sulfites first, then wait and add pectic enzyme later. That is if I add sulfites.

 

[Scooter68]

Well chicken v egg appears to be an ongoing question.
While your blackberries are thawing you could have added it and that would have met the criteria about using at cooler temperatures. I have both liquid and powdered PE and they both work well. Note that the comment by Keller is that K-Meta would "retard" the action. Point is that the PE being in there already means you aren't going to forget it and I've had my fruit easily take 24 hours to fully thaw out. With the PE in there from the gitgo it's able to work on that fruit as soon as conditions permit. You don't have to guess when those conditions are met.

AND just to overwhelm you with info - Here are portions of articles on using Pectic Enzyme. (PE) As these show there are some differences of opinion on the use of PE. None actually say that using it before or with K-Meta will make it ineffective - Slow it down (retard it) but not prevent it from working.

https://blog.eckraus.com/when-to-add-pectic-enzyme-for-wine (Seller of many wine making supplies) When To Add Pectic Enzyme To Your Wine?
As for winemaking, the optimum time to add pectic enzyme is right after crushing the fruit and before pressing. By breaking down the pectin cells at this stage, you are allowing more juice to release from the fruit’s fiber – a good thing for making wine. If you are not the one doing the crushing and pressing, then the second best time to add pectic enzyme to your wine is at the beginning of the fermentation. This will allow the pectic enzyme to do its thing while the wine fermentation is occurring.

From https://winemakersacademy.com/pectic-enzymes-wine/ - According to Alison Crowe in The Winemaker’s Answer Book you should not add pectic enzymes within 12 hours of adding sulfur dioxide or bentonite. The sulfur dioxide can reduce the effectiveness of the enzymes. Depending upon your wine making references the jury is still out on whether or not this is true. Some wine makers believe that there are no problems when adding both at the same time. Personally, I trust Ms. Crowe and will heed her warnings until I am convinced it is safe.

The effectiveness of pectic enzyme is impacted by both alcohol concentration and the temperature of the wine. High alcohol levels and low temperatures each negatively impact the enzymes ability to break down pectin.

From https://www.piwine.com/media/home-wine-making-basics/using-pectic-enzymes.pdf -

7. Enzyme activity will increase with levels of use or with increases in temperature. A rule of thumb is that you double the activity with every 10oF increase in temperature (at least up to the point where the enzymes are inactivated in the 120oF to 130oF range) and doubling of the amount of enzymes used.

8.At the lower end of the temperature range you need more time to get clarity and get little help when you are below 30oF. American Tartaric claims that the powdered formsmay be slightly faster at temperatures, because the liquids may gel a bit when added to cold liquids; however they think that the difference may not be significant.

9.We have been unable to find any relevant research on whether you should avoid using enzymes when you have very greenish tannins. We have some concern about extracting more green tannins, but don’t have enough evidence to be sure of the effects. 10.Most enzymes will work over the range of pH2.5 to pH5.5 and are not inhibited by sulfur dioxide levels normally found in wines.

10.Most enzymes will work over the range of pH2.5 to pH5.5 and are not inhibited by sulfur dioxide levels normally found in wines.

From https://winemakermag.com/article/using-pectic-enzymes

Additions for this purpose should be made at the crusher prior to fermentation according to the manufacturer’s instructions. Adding pectinase prior to the start of fermentation allows it more time to break down the pectin as the juice ferments. If you have not added any enzyme to your juice or discover your fermented wine is cloudy then go ahead and add it after fermentation.

Because enzymes are proteins, they react with bentonite. For this reason, you should wait at least 24 hours after adding pectic enzymes before adding bentonite.

Ideally, pectinases should be added in temperatures of at least 80 °F (27 °C) to be most effective. It can be added at lower temperatures, but this will slow the time it takes to react. Temperatures too warm or too cold can inhibit enzymatic activity, as can too high of an alcohol content.

Pectic enzymes are available at most winemaking and homebrewing retailers in liquid or powder forms. Both work the same way, but follow the instruction about how much and how it should be added. The powder version must be dissolved in cool water before it is added to the juice or wine, while liquid enzymes can be added directly. [Pectinase is a refined version of Pectic Enzyme]

(There is obviously more to the PIWINE article and the others but these snippets should give you an idea about the various opinions on Pectic Enzyme use.)

 

[Intheswamp]

Thanks for the reading material, Scooter68. Quiet a bit of information! It seems, though, that if one was directed to be added prior to another it would be the K-meta. My thinking (and I'm a newbie just thinking) is that the must needs protection from wild yeast and bacteria as soon as possible. The fruit will start breaking down naturally without the pectin but without the sulfite protection the must could become a victim of infection prior to the intended yeast taking control of the fermentation.

But, it does appear to be a chicken or the egg discussion with arguments going in different directions...K-meta first, Pectin enzymes first, and both added at the same time. I see that the excerpt from winemakermag.com states that the pectin enzymes should be added with the temperature of the must above 80F....Keller says that it shouldn't be added when must temperatures are over 75F. winemakermag.com's statement is in regards to "Pectinase" rather than regular Pectin Enzymes, though. Not sure how to interpret the difference between the two ingredients and the two widely different temperature recommendations.

Seems like mostly all orders of adding these two ingredients end up working for winemakers and it goes back to what one settles on for their method, I suppose. Thanks again for that information, definitely food for thought!

 

[Scooter68]

A lot depends on how the fruit is prepared. Berries ? Collect/buy, Freeze, Thaw, K-meta, PE, Or toss PE in as the fruit is thawing.

I put 21 lbs of frozen blueberries in a 5 gallon bucket and it took them over 24 hours to thaw. I put in PE as I dumped them out of their freezer bags. The next day as I was crushing them they were still pretty cold. As soon as I finished crushing them I added the K-Meta, Simple Syrup, Took measurements and got everything in order, Then It sat overnight and I took more measurements the next day. I waited that extra day so that I could recheck SG and pH again after adjustment. Then I prepared an pitched the yeast.
If you are working with fresh cool not frozen fruit I would certainly agree with the K-Meta first but then I might still add the PE. The only bad thing is that the PE won't work much while the higher sulfite levels are present BUT as they subside they will go to work and I don't have to worry about 'has it been long enough to wait before adding the PE.

If it works for you with good results... go for it. That's one thing about wine making that I have learned on here - there are not a lot of hard fast rules. Plenty of options that work.

 

[RadRob]

I went over my wine logs from the persimmon and strawberry wine I made last year and both were added at the same time without any effects. The strawberry broke down in 3 days and the persimmons took 8 days. I'm guessing the persimmons took longer due to the size. I added both on this batch and the berries are breaking down and the bag is half the size it was yesterday. I'll separate them on the next batch and see if there's a difference. Here's what the blackberries look like this morning.

 

[Scooter68]

A lot depends on the fruit too. Apples and peaches need more help. A lot of the smaller berries (blueberry, Blackberries, Red and Black Raspberries.) break down quite well with just a little pressure - Literally. But Elderberries take some serious effort to get a good juice.

That's one big difference with 'Country Fruit Wines' (CFW) there are many differences in what it takes to get if from the field to the table in a great wine. Look at how many people have tried to make watermelon wine and ended up dumping it. My bad experience was with strawberries. So in a way I would put a stake in the ground and say that CFWs are a little harder. But then the critics for traditional grape are pretty tough because grape wine has such a long history and frankly those who have seen "Bottle Shock" are aware of the prejudices that play into judging a wine.

 

[RadRob]

Yes Sir, frozen berries almost juice them selves when they thaw too.

 

[Intheswamp]

So the K-meta does wipe out the Pectin enzymes, just waylays them for a while? Once the dose of K-meta subsides some the pectin enzyme begins to kick in?

With the cold temperatures of the fruit/must I can see where a wild fermentation would hardly take place. And, having read where the Pectin Enzymes work at better at lower temps it does make sense to add the enzymes first.

So, I could add the enzymes onto the frosty fruit, let it work what it will. Then, when the fruit has pretty much thawed throw the K-meta at it, which will stop the enzymes from working. But as the K-meta dose subsides the enzymes will kick back in to some degree. Or...just throw both of those in the must and let each do their thing when their timing is right? Is that about the jest of it?

I think I'm getting a better idea of your workflow, Scooter68. Thanks for sticking with me on this.

A lot depends on how the fruit is prepared. Berries ? Collect/buy, Freeze, Thaw, K-meta, PE, Or toss PE in as the fruit is thawing.

I put 21 lbs of frozen blueberries in a 5 gallon bucket and it took them over 24 hours to thaw. I put in PE as I dumped them out of their freezer bags. The next day as I was crushing them they were still pretty cold. As soon as I finished crushing them I added the K-Meta, Simple Syrup, Took measurements and got everything in order, Then It sat overnight and I took more measurements the next day. I waited that extra day so that I could recheck SG and pH again after adjustment. Then I prepared an pitched the yeast.
If you are working with fresh cool not frozen fruit I would certainly agree with the K-Meta first but then I might still add the PE. The only bad thing is that the PE won't work much while the higher sulfite levels are present BUT as they subside they will go to work and I don't have to worry about 'has it been long enough to wait before adding the PE.

If it works for you with good results... go for it. That's one thing about wine making that I have learned on here - there are not a lot of hard fast rules. Plenty of options that work.

 

[Scooter68]

The K-Meta is to get rid of as much bacteria as possible. Wild yeast might be killed but most likely just stunned a little.

 

[RadRob]

I'm confused, I squeezed the pulp and added another gallon of blackberry juice to top off the bucket. I tested the PH and it's at 7.0. What do I need to do now?

 

[sour_grapes]

I'm confused, I squeezed the pulp and added another gallon of blackberry juice to top off the bucket. I tested the PH and it's at 7.0. What do I need to do now?

May I ask how you are measuring the pH? 7 seems unreasonably high.

 

[Intheswamp]

Fruits and vegetables from different areas can have different acid levels but they mostly follow along in a general range of acidity.

Here's a chart from Clemson University: pH Values of Common Foods and Ingredients

Another list of fruit/vegetable pH values: pH of Foods and Food Products

And one more list, basically all fruit (might be interesting if you have reflux, too!): pH LIST RAW AND DRIED FRUITS

A pH of 7.0 would be basically neutral and most sites state blackberries as being around 3.7-4.5.