No the ceiling and front side are already insulated inside. The 2 fans dropped the temp to 73 which about what it has been doing the past few hours. It is up to 68 degrees outside and we will shut the fans off when we hit about 72 degrees. We will close the door and not go back in until tonight when the outside air cools down. We are thinking of putting a screen door on the inside so we could leave the fans run all night long, worried about rats and mice getting inside the open door.
Hole is dug for our new wine cellar
- Thread starter Sammyk
- Start date
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Sammy
When you use your infrared thermometer what is the floor temp? The bottom 2 foot of the walls? I think you need ins around the top 2 ft as well. don't rush to cut a vent. Once insulated properly it will cool. Remember the reason a cellar wroks properly in the first place is the slow transfer. Give it a while. Once you have it properly insulated get a block of dry ice and set it in the middle to catch up. check it reg though as it might drop the Temp more than you want.
When you use your infrared thermometer what is the floor temp? The bottom 2 foot of the walls? I think you need ins around the top 2 ft as well. don't rush to cut a vent. Once insulated properly it will cool. Remember the reason a cellar wroks properly in the first place is the slow transfer. Give it a while. Once you have it properly insulated get a block of dry ice and set it in the middle to catch up. check it reg though as it might drop the Temp more than you want.
Stats 9:30am
Outside cloudy overcast rain on the way
Outside temp 68
Fans are off now
Humidity 88% noticing what looks like mold/mildew on bottles may just be dust from foam core installation
Back floor 72
Front floor 71.8
Back Wall 2' up 73.2
Ceiling 74.8
Side Wall West 2' up 75.3 4 to 6' of dirt on this side except top
Ceiling 73.6
Dave we will try the dry ice in a few days, need to foam in between the foam core because it took a lot of cutting around electrical outlet and from piecing pieces to fit. Have to wait until we can turn off electricity and keep door open so there is daylight to see where to apply the spray foam.
Outside cloudy overcast rain on the way
Outside temp 68
Fans are off now
Humidity 88% noticing what looks like mold/mildew on bottles may just be dust from foam core installation
Back floor 72
Front floor 71.8
Back Wall 2' up 73.2
Ceiling 74.8
Side Wall West 2' up 75.3 4 to 6' of dirt on this side except top
Ceiling 73.6
Dave we will try the dry ice in a few days, need to foam in between the foam core because it took a lot of cutting around electrical outlet and from piecing pieces to fit. Have to wait until we can turn off electricity and keep door open so there is daylight to see where to apply the spray foam.
Sammy
Just out of curiousity I went into my basement and shot the areas we discussed. The fully backfilled wall is 10" thick solid concrete. floor is 60 wall at top is 64. Top 1 foot of wall is exposed to outside. This is an unfinnished addition above with no insulation installed at all and open stairs leading up to first floor.
I think if you get the walls insulated 2 ft below roof line. Consider adding another 2 inches of insulation to the ceiling. Then get it cooled down in mass. Put the Dry ice up on a top shelf. You'll be fine.
Only problem you need to watch is your dry ice will lower the wine temp much faster than the concrete.
Just out of curiousity I went into my basement and shot the areas we discussed. The fully backfilled wall is 10" thick solid concrete. floor is 60 wall at top is 64. Top 1 foot of wall is exposed to outside. This is an unfinnished addition above with no insulation installed at all and open stairs leading up to first floor.
I think if you get the walls insulated 2 ft below roof line. Consider adding another 2 inches of insulation to the ceiling. Then get it cooled down in mass. Put the Dry ice up on a top shelf. You'll be fine.
Only problem you need to watch is your dry ice will lower the wine temp much faster than the concrete.
Checked out dry ice and you cannot use it in an enclosed area. Dry ice rule #1 is that you must use dry ice in a well ventilated area. As dry ice warms up, it releases carbon dioxide gas in to the air. Too much carbon dioxide gas can cause asphyxiation and even death. Always use dry ice in a well ventilated area.
We bought light colored paint, just a quart of exterior paint to see how it will work on the RR ties. The other day when we checked the ties, it was 150 degrees, no kidding!
The fellow a Lowe's thought we might need 2 layers on the ceiling so that is most likely what we will do. At least the 2nd layer will go up easier then the first layer did on the corrugated steel sheets.
Thanks for the help Dave.
We bought light colored paint, just a quart of exterior paint to see how it will work on the RR ties. The other day when we checked the ties, it was 150 degrees, no kidding!
The fellow a Lowe's thought we might need 2 layers on the ceiling so that is most likely what we will do. At least the 2nd layer will go up easier then the first layer did on the corrugated steel sheets.
Thanks for the help Dave.
Sammyk said:
I'm wondering why the floor is so warm. Is it conducting heat from the walls?
Part of me is thinking it might still be curing. It's only been a few weeks since its been "done" and it has been closed up since.
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seth8530
The Atomic Wine Maker
'From those readings you can see that the place is the hottest where the insulation is the weakest.. Fix those spots and see if that helps you out any. ....Could the concrete be keeping the place warm?? Hmm, I do not find it improbable that the curing could be producing enough heat to have an impact on the overall room temperature.. Especially in such a small volume. However, I suspect it is not the worst of the problem.
I pour concrete for a living. For the first few days after a pour covered with concrete blankets when you pick them up steam arises. ACI requires 50f at the surface and they achieve that with blankets in 20f weather in the midatlantic.
BUT 1 thing we keep fogetting is these are block walls not concrete. While they may be filled they are more porous than solid concrete and will not have the same thermal mass.
Also I suspect by the shoddy workmanship of the contractor that they didn't do the best job of filling the blocks. A regular concrete mix will not consolidate fully in this situation. A grout mix is required. All of this is probably allowing more heat transfer from the outside given the lack of dirt.
The floor temp is curious though. I suspect it is being warmed from the air from above.
BUT 1 thing we keep fogetting is these are block walls not concrete. While they may be filled they are more porous than solid concrete and will not have the same thermal mass.
Also I suspect by the shoddy workmanship of the contractor that they didn't do the best job of filling the blocks. A regular concrete mix will not consolidate fully in this situation. A grout mix is required. All of this is probably allowing more heat transfer from the outside given the lack of dirt.
The floor temp is curious though. I suspect it is being warmed from the air from above.
seth8530
The Atomic Wine Maker
Ahh, nice to hear some input from a concrete guy. Very interesting info you have there.
I would have to go back and read the timelines because I no longer remember them. Keep in mind the work took place over many weeks because the workers generally only worked here one day a week.
The concrete guys only do concrete (sub contractors). While we don't know what they used, it was a different mixture of cement when they core filled because a cement truck brought the cement when they core filled. The cement for the blocks was mixed in a small mixer. We have to believe that they knew what they were doing.
For whatever reason it is holding the heat. We had cloudy overcast weather with lots of rain the past 2 days and the air temp inside is staying at 75 degrees.
There is mold or mildew (not sure which it is) on the bottles. We brought up some carboys to rack today that were in large Rubbermaid totes and there were "spots" on the outside of the glass and around the carboy opening.
We had the same problem mold/mildew when we stored carboys under the house last summer and the temperature under the house pretty much stayed in the mid-60's all summer.
Now we are thinking we will have to install an air-conditioner by cutting a hole in the front side. We have not hit 90 yet and we will soon and with some days close to 100 degrees. Lots of rain and more on the way from the tropical storm coming up from FL. Right now we are getting the rain that moved east from the tornadoes out west.
The concrete guys only do concrete (sub contractors). While we don't know what they used, it was a different mixture of cement when they core filled because a cement truck brought the cement when they core filled. The cement for the blocks was mixed in a small mixer. We have to believe that they knew what they were doing.
For whatever reason it is holding the heat. We had cloudy overcast weather with lots of rain the past 2 days and the air temp inside is staying at 75 degrees.
There is mold or mildew (not sure which it is) on the bottles. We brought up some carboys to rack today that were in large Rubbermaid totes and there were "spots" on the outside of the glass and around the carboy opening.
We had the same problem mold/mildew when we stored carboys under the house last summer and the temperature under the house pretty much stayed in the mid-60's all summer.
Now we are thinking we will have to install an air-conditioner by cutting a hole in the front side. We have not hit 90 yet and we will soon and with some days close to 100 degrees. Lots of rain and more on the way from the tropical storm coming up from FL. Right now we are getting the rain that moved east from the tornadoes out west.
The motar for the blocks was mixed in a mixer (sand cement water) The concrete comes on a truck, or grout. ( of course the concrete could also be mixed in the mixer on site just add rocks) .
Interesting that it holds heat when it is cooler outside. If there is nothing generating heat then it is working you just need to get the temp down now that its insulated.
I wonder what the avg temp of your soil is 3ft deep. Do you have an auger? Maybe post hole diggers? Dig a hole 3 ft deep, place a thermometer in the ground not a surface reading,read it then stuff a blanket or two in the hole and check it later.
Interesting that it holds heat when it is cooler outside. If there is nothing generating heat then it is working you just need to get the temp down now that its insulated.
I wonder what the avg temp of your soil is 3ft deep. Do you have an auger? Maybe post hole diggers? Dig a hole 3 ft deep, place a thermometer in the ground not a surface reading,read it then stuff a blanket or two in the hole and check it later.
Dry Ice
Dry ice $2.00 a pound and after explaining our situation he figured we would need 200 to 250 pound and it would last 3 to 4 hours. He did not think it would cool the cellar down that much. Of course his thoughts were pure speculation.
We seem to have come to a standstill and run out options.
Dry ice $2.00 a pound and after explaining our situation he figured we would need 200 to 250 pound and it would last 3 to 4 hours. He did not think it would cool the cellar down that much. Of course his thoughts were pure speculation.
We seem to have come to a standstill and run out options.
seth8530
The Atomic Wine Maker
Give me a bit of time and I can try and crunch out how much dry ice will cool the room.. What are the internal dimensions of the cellar?
seth8530
The Atomic Wine Maker
I am not understanding the height dimension you just gave me.. sorry,
seth8530
The Atomic Wine Maker
ohh, I understand what you said now.. Thanks
seth8530
The Atomic Wine Maker
Alright, so some things to think about. 1 Kg of dry ice takes 571 Kilo joules of energy to turn into gas. 1Kg of ice takes 334 Kilo joules of energy to turn into water. Your room will take about 27 Kilo joules of energy to raise 1 degree C. If you were to somehow instantly transfer the heat energy of the room into the dry ice to turn it all into gas your room temperature would instantly drop by about 20 degrees C ( Unfortunately this would be nearly impossible to accomplish) But the important thing to realize here is that both dry ice and standard ice can absorb an incredible amount of energy and thus help regulate the temperature.
I would not use Dry ice.. I feel like it would be rather expensive and also a possible CO2 hazard. Instead if you want to try something out just for fun get a trashcan full of ice and place it in your room with a fan blowing over the ice to improve the heat transfer. This might make an effective temporary solution until you can manage to get some sort of heat removal system and or better insulation installed. If I had my heat transfer book with me I would try and do a more relevant evaluation where I would estimate the rate of heat transfer from the surrounding air into the dry ice and thus the rate of cooling of your room.. Sorry, I do not have those resources available to me right now.
I would not use Dry ice.. I feel like it would be rather expensive and also a possible CO2 hazard. Instead if you want to try something out just for fun get a trashcan full of ice and place it in your room with a fan blowing over the ice to improve the heat transfer. This might make an effective temporary solution until you can manage to get some sort of heat removal system and or better insulation installed. If I had my heat transfer book with me I would try and do a more relevant evaluation where I would estimate the rate of heat transfer from the surrounding air into the dry ice and thus the rate of cooling of your room.. Sorry, I do not have those resources available to me right now.
DirtyDawg10
Senior Member
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Have you thought about what you are going to do when January and February roll around? Sorry to hear you have your hands full with this project.
