Hole is dug for our new wine cellar

[Runningwolf]

Way too much drama, it's not so difficult. Forget the wine cellar, and poke a hole in the roof for a chimney and turn it into a smoke house. Turkeys, hams, sausage and your fish! Now you're talking!!!

 

[pjd]

In your climate forget about the evaporative cooler! It will not work. They do work well in the desert southwest but not in a humid climate. I really would not be worrying about 70s temperatures in my wine cellar. There is nothing in there that will last past 5 years so really little effect.

 

[dessertmaker]

You can adapt a window unit with some ductwork.

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/JI3rviFUK-k

This is similar to what we did, except we ran the ductwork to the outside and put a grill over the hole we cut in the wall And we placed it on an actual AC drain pan that we piped to a floor drain to get rid of any condensate it made (which it didn't really make much if any.) and the air it blew was DRY!

It got FRIGID in there too!

We also did it quicker. We got a piece of commercial box style duct and cut a square big enough for the AC in it and shoved it in there like it was a window to the outside.

 

[seth8530]

My advice is two stage. A short term stage for your current situation and trying to get those temps down as fast as possible and a more long term planned out for the the future when you have the time/ money to work on it.

Short term!
So, here is what I propose, set up a raised up tarp up over your cellar.. Line the side that faces the sun with shiney foil to reflect radiation from the sun... This will work better than just putting a tarp over your cellar because the foil will reflect the sun off a lot better. Next, try out one of those portable AC units where you can stick the hose out the side that might help a bit.. Make sure you get one much more powerful than what is recommended for the size of your cellar (they usually come with a room size).

One thing to consider is getting a large brute can full of ice and sitting it inside of your cellar. This will give the heat energy something to waste its energy on besides raising up the air temperature. Consider running a fan over the trash can to help out a bit.

Long term!

Insulate the papa out of this bad boy! Add as much dirt as you safely can on top of your cellar. This will provide natural insulation from the sun. Next, get some better insulation inside of your cellar it really helps! The goal should be that you can keep this bad boy cool all year round without having to run an AC unit 24/7.. Consider adding layers of foil on top of the roof of the cellar.. This will help keep out some of that pesky solar radiation.. The more layers of insulation you use the better protected your cellar will be. Like some others have said, planting some shade trees would also help.


My advice, is insulation. It is a passive feature and does not require constant upkeep and maintenance like portable AC units.. However, it might not be possible to keep the room cool without a portable AC unit... So, give my suggestions a looking over and see what you think. I can not promise you that this will fix your temperature problem, but based on what I know about this matter its the best that I can think up for your current situation.

 

[seth8530]

Also, dessert makers video that he posted would be worth watching I think.. Be aware of possible fire hazards of having something wrapped out the heat exchanger end of an AC unit... But, it might be worth considering. Just make sure that you have a way to channel the heat out of the duct.. Perhaps an outtake fan mounted on the end of it to force the hot air out?

 

[novalou]

Way too much drama, it's not so difficult. Forget the wine cellar, and poke a hole in the roof for a chimney and turn it into a smoke house. Turkeys, hams, sausage and your fish! Now you're talking!!!

Drama? I love it!

Blow it up, start over, and put it about 6 feet below the "frost line"!

 

[Sammyk]

There is no way to add more dirt on top. It was supposed to have 3' over the top but poor planning on the contractors part is the biggest culprit.

Right from the start he told me he would research on how to build a cellar and I kept all the tips/suggestions/ ideas from here on the forum in note pad and emailed it to him. I can tell you he did not research nor even bother to read my email with those notes.

While it does look good and we have had tons of compliments, it is not functional as a cellar because IMO it is way too warm.

We did plant 3 trees on the front side.

We think the front side which faces south is the culprit. There is no insulation inside and we will insulate the steel door and the front side of the cellar inside on the south side. Both sides and the back have about 4' of dirt. The top has about 2' of dirt on top and really no way to add more dirt because it will wash down. We did plant annual rye grass on the sides and back. We will permanently seed again in the fall when grass is typically sown here in the south.
This has been a huge learning experience. Hopefully someone else will benefit from our experience.

I have added the finished picture so that folks do not have to go back pages and see the final product.

 

[seth8530]

Yeah, just looking at the top of the door and comparing it to the ground level above it you can tell that their is nowhere near enough dirt on top. Insulate it well and try installing an Active cooling solution.

 

[DaveL]

Crap
let me try this again, I keep hitting the wrong button and losing my post.
Sorry to read of your troubles.
I tend to agree with Seth, insulation. Start with the roof and south wall then the top 4 feet of the other walls.
Get an infrared thermometer$50 lowes. use this to identify your culprits .Also good for wine and BBQ
Weatherstripping the door, check around outlets and light fixtures.
Tarp the walkway more.
Insulation on the outside would work better.

 

[dessertmaker]

Why not add a buttload more dirt, cover it in chicken wire to keep it from washing out too badly for the short term and planting some centipede grass on it for the long term?

 

[Sammyk]

Great idea about the infrared thermometer, we are checking them out now. Sunday we will insulate the door, the front walls and the ceiling. We were running a de-humidifier because the humidity was pretty high but then we realized the de-humidifier was raising the temp inside so we turned that off.
As pjd mentioned we have very high humidity here in the summer so while I did order the "ventless" air conditioner from Amazon, I will most likely have to return it. We had planned to vent it into the bottom drain.

While we do not think of this project as a lot of drama there are "bugs" we are trying to work out.

AND we do appreciate all the thoughts and ideas, so thank you very much for your input.

 

[Sammyk]

What kind of insulation would we use on the outside?

 

[jswordy]

http://www.foamular.com/foam/products/

There are different manufacturers, but this is a good list to get an idea. You just need it on top, or if possible on top and the top half of the sides. The bottom should be in cool dirt. Look at Under Slab and General.

 

[whackfol]

Have you considered spray foam insulation on the inside? The r value is incredible for the time and money and it solves most vapor issues. I installed a wine cellar in a poured wall basement 15 years ago. I planned to add refrigeration, but wanted to minimize the btu's required. I framed up the wall with 2x6 studs and then hired a spray foam applicator to spray the cavities. For the ceiling, I installed a couple of 2" sheets of foam insulation to the ceiling, framed under them with 2x6's and then foamed the voids. As mentioned I still have 1500 btu's of refrigeration. This is well below the 4,500 btu's had I done what, at the time, was typical for wine cellars. Most of what I read indicated that the first few feet under ground mattered most. Under this level the temperature is fairly constant. In my area it is 3 feet. I'm not sure how your part below and part above ground cellar would be calculated.

Love your project, I hope you can get it balanced.

 

[seth8530]

What kind of insulation would we use on the outside?

Dirt is a pretty good insulter that does not look out of place when used outside (;

 

[DaveL]

2 inch hard board insulation. you can cut it with a razor knife. Cover with dirt

 

[Arne]

If you go with a mini split air conditioner you will have to have a small hole to run the lines in. Then there will be a condensing unit set someplace outside. Also need a drain and enough power to handle the unit. These will cost more than the portables, but should outlast them by a lot. Have to get with a local a.c. contractor and bet he can help you out. First thing tho, I would get the insulation. Like Seth says, get a radient barrier of some kind on the top and sides where they are not very far into the ground. Like John said, most any kind of refrigeration unit you can find will have a bounce factor in the temp. Has to have some difference between off and on or it would just be a constant start and stop. Good luck with it, Arne.

 

[jswordy]

I respectfully disagree that you cannot add more dirt. If by washing down, you mean it will be piled up higher than your door height and so the pile will wash down in front there, simply add railroad ties as a retaining wall across the top of the structure, stretching out on either side, until you reach your desired dirt height and the back fill to them - just as the dummy (er, contractor) did on the walkway to the door. Alternate your joints so it is strong and nail with large spikes. Anchor with rebar.

If it were mine, I would rent a Bobcat, scrape back all the dirt off the top, get 6 inches or more of rigid foamboard across the top and extending a few inches to a foot over on each side (and down the upper portions of the sides if you can) , build my railroad tie retaining wall in front above the doorway, and pile 4 feet of dirt on there. Better yet, get the dummy (er, contractor) to do it in lieu of a lawsuit. And closely watch their every move.

This did not turn out to fit your expected usage nor the contractor's expressed warranty for fitness, so I'd be seeing a lawyer about financial remedies. I have had my share of jack-legs masquerading as craftsmen, and a letter from a lawyer usually is sufficient to get them onboard.

Alternately, you could scrape all the dirt off the top and about a foot on the sides. Then construct a conventional roof on top, using foamboard insulation inside it and Reflectix (http://www.reflectixinc.com - if you look you will see they have WINE ROOM listed) double-bubble insulation stapled to the rafter with the shiny side UP. Then you put purlins on the rafters and add a reflective metal roof. It turns out so that the Reflectix is on the rafters, then the purlins allow a 1-inch airspace between it and the steel of the roof. AMAZING heat reflective properties. I had this installed on my house to hold down AC bills. Makes a 15-20 degree difference. Of course, I had to stand there and tell the installers how I wanted it done. They had never heard of it! Argued and cussed me. I said, who's paying for the job? That got it done. I already had this on my metal shop building (which I built myself), again a huge cooling effect.

I guess my advice is not to just settle for something inadequate. Your ideas for passive cooling were sound, so get it so they will work!

 

[Sammyk]

We are pizzed! Temp the past few days has been 71 and humidity at 84%. We only go in early in the morning to check the temperature because it is so hot here we are afraid to open the door. We did put a silver colored tarp up over the entrance and it did not make much difference. We have been watering a few times a day because the top is planted in vinca vine and all the surrounding area in rye grass. So we are keeping the entire area wet. We also planted a bunch of trees. The grass is germinating now.

The heat sensing gun arrived today and we think we found the culprit. It is warmest on the south side and that varies from 73 to 75 at 5pm today. The wall towards the back was 69 degrees.

Our plan now is to find a contractor that does spray foam insulation and insulate the door, ceiling and walls with spray foam, the entire inside. It is way too much work to remove all the plants from the roof, scrape back the dirt, rent a bobcat and move more dirt to the top. We are into our peak business time for shipping and we do not have any extra spare time. Initially I told the contractor it absolutely had to be finished before we reached 70 degrees and now we are in the upper 80's.

He has not been back with the final bill which is probably around $3,000. We do not plan to pay him another cent because it did not fit our specifications. Should he pursue the issue we will go to court and as it is we will deduct the cost of having the spray foam insulation applied or what ever we need to do to make the cellar functional. Or if we have to make further corrections.

We hate this situation we are in but if he had researched like he said he would or read the notes I emailed him from the forum, I think everything would have been OK. We were very clear that the cellar had to have at least 3' of dirt on the top.

The biggest problem is near the front of the cellar there is only about 8 inches of dirt on top and toward the back it probably does slope down to 2 to 2.5' of dirt.

To add to the more dirt and ties to the top will make the cellar stand out like a soar thumb in the area and very obvious from the road that there is a structure there.

I am guessing that he knows how pizzed we are and that is why he has not been back for final payment. He does know that the one day it was 71 degrees in the cellar and we were very upset.

 

[GreginND]

I would think if you get a good bed of grass established over that dirt it would go a long way toward cooling things down. That soil is dark and absorbing a lot of heat from the sun.

I am not sure why you are hesitant to scrape off the top. Sure, you'll lose some plants, etc. But it is still the easiest option to add more insulation outside. If you do spray inside you will lose interior space. You may want to consult someone who knows about thermal protection. Perhaps you only need to spray the ceiling and door/front.