Other How do you rack down?

[sremick]

Have you been doing long term storage with the head space eliminators with the technique?

Yes, that's how I pull/hold a vacuum. I've been doing the vacuum+argon method for a few years now.

 

[sour_grapes]

Most of what the vacuum pulls out would indeed be argon. But I'm pulling any remaining oxygen too and it's not going to be a perfect vacuum. Argon is heavier than air, so once things settle it's the remaining argon against the wine, and remaining O2 above that.

At least that's my thought process. It's not scientific. Logically I should be ok with just the argon and not the vacuum in addition, but I have the AIO Wine Pump so why not.

If you are not topping up, then argon + vacuum seems like a decent protocol. However, please be advised that whatever gases are left in the vessel will mix freely. Ar may be slightly heavier than O2, but the gas distribution will be homogeneous to within the parts per million level.

 

[sremick]

If you are not topping up, then argon + vacuum seems like a decent protocol. However, please be advised that whatever gases are left in the vessel will mix freely. Ar may be slightly heavier than O2, but the gas distribution will be homogeneous to within the parts per million level.

Well, my local commercial winery uses argon so there must be something to it.

 

[sour_grapes]

Well, my local commercial winery uses argon so there must be something to it.

Yes, if you introduce it carefully, you can displace the other gases (because it takes ~minutes for the gases to mix). And at worse, the argon dilutes the gases left in the space. But there is no layering or blanketing effect, as is sometimes asserted.

 

[winemaker81]

But there is no layering or blanketing effect, as is sometimes asserted.

Based upon what I've read, this is correct. Gases mix fairly rapidly, although it's impossible to know how quickly, as all the gases in question are invisible.

Note that a degassing wine appears to be a different situation, as the wine is emitting gas from the bottom on a constant basis, which displaces gas at the top of the space. Regardless of how quickly gases mix, whatever is at the top is displaced. Over time the ratio of CO2 to other gases will favor CO2.

The fact that a degassing wine does not oxidize is a good indication that it works.

I prefer to top up containers with wine, as I know 100% what is in the container.

 

[sour_grapes]

Based upon what I've read, this is correct. Gases mix fairly rapidly, although it's impossible to know how quickly, as all the gases in question are invisible.

I concur with your basic point. However, there are other ways of measuring gases that don't use visible light. Accordingly, the diffusion constants of various gases in other gases have been well studied. Here is a page listing a few diffusion constants of interest (and giving the equation that describes that diffusion): Air - Diffusion Coefficients of Gases in Excess of Air I don't claim to have looked at any original studies measuring the diffusion constants.

 

[CDrew]

Most of what the vacuum pulls out would indeed be argon. But I'm pulling any remaining oxygen too and it's not going to be a perfect vacuum. Argon is heavier than air, so once things settle it's the remaining argon against the wine, and remaining O2 above that.

This is not correct, but a very common misconception on WMT. Argon is miscible in air. Air already has a few percent argon, and if it settles out, those of us near sea level would be in big trouble.

Anyway, in the head space, all the O2 N2, CO2 and Argon are all distributed according to their percent of the total.

@sour_grapes beat me to it.

 

[winemaker81]

I concur with your basic point. However, there are other ways of measuring gases that don't use visible light.

True -- after posting I realized there are methods for checking. However, are the methods of measuring invisible gases easily available to home winemakers?

It is a good idea to differentiate between what is possible and what is easily/commonly available.

I've been looking for a proven explanation why a degassing wine is safe from oxidation, especially for extended periods as in EM. My explanation makes sense, and I can't think of another.

 

[sour_grapes]

True -- after posting I realized there are methods for checking. However, are the methods of measuring invisible gases easily available to home winemakers?

It is a good idea to differentiate between what is possible and what is easily/commonly available.

I've been looking for a proven explanation why a degassing wine is safe from oxidation, especially for extended periods as in EM. My explanation makes sense, and I can't think of another.

No, I wasn't saying that this was available to the home winemaker!

I think I misinterpreted your comment about "impossible to know how quickly." I now suspect that you meant "you cannot tell when you are doing it, so take appropriate precautions." And I thought you meant "No one knows how quickly gases mix." My point in questioning this was to point out that we can calculate how quickly they mix based on the work of others before us, so we have a reasonable idea of how long the mixing takes.

 

[winemaker81]

No, I wasn't saying that this was available to the home winemaker!

I think I misinterpreted your comment about "impossible to know how quickly." I now suspect that you meant "you cannot tell when you are doing it, so take appropriate precautions." And I thought you meant "No one knows how quickly gases mix." My point in questioning this was to point out that we can calculate how quickly they mix based on the work of others before us, so we have a reasonable idea of how long the mixing takes.

Text is such a hard medium for communication, as there is no tone and no reading each others' expressions.

Your take on my meaning is correct. I know (intellectually) that if enough of any inert gas is pumped in, it will displace the air to reduce the level enough to be safe for the wine. Cool. It works.

But ... how does one determine how much is "enough"?

So far, no one has supplied an answer, hence my caution on the subject.

 

[Bmd2k1]

I ferment my kits in 30L Speidel (which actually holds almost 8gals) and then bulk age in 20L Speidel which holds a whisker over 6gals up into the neck.

No topping up ever needed

Cheers!

 

[Brant]

@leftiesrule I'm relatively new to this sport but in my short tenure, I've come to a few realizations about making wine with the help from others on this forum. The people on here are the best and so helpful!

In my opinion, don't overcomplicate the process. Once your rack to secondary, just top up the wine with whatever you have on hand that's similar. I've used commercial and homemade and haven't notice a difference. Volumes are so low that it's unlikely you could tell even if you used white for a red or even water (which I wouldn't suggest but I know others have done). Eliminate excessive headspace, add kmeta on a schedule and O2 will not be an issue.

Rack at least once more during bulk aging once the fine lees have sufficiently compacted and k&c have done their job. I don't think you need to rack more than this as any remaining sediment will be fine lees and it seems that the consensus is they do not negatively affect the final outcome.

Filter your wine prior to bottling. I use an AIO with 5 micron poly filter. Works awesome! Seriously it's a great tool when paired with the filter. Wine comes out crystal clear.

I have a bottle of inert gas for blanketing, a headspace cap for pulling a vacuum but I absolutely know that eliminating the headspace is a bulletproof solution to O2 fears.

Also, I respect O2 but don't fear it as much as I once did. I can thank @winemaker81 for this.

good luck. Btw, i hate your handle

 

[She’sgonnakillme]

While everything stated in the last two pages of this thread are likely accurate, I tend to be more pragmatic. For centuries wine has been made without all the modern gadgets. And they hardly had the vaccum capabilities we have today, they relied on sulfites! Wine is more forgiving than you would think, I personally don't get worried about head space until it's after the degassing stage (1 month after fermentation is about right ), even then the k meta addition will protect the wine for the most part. The only time I worry about headspace is if I plan on bulk aging longer than 3 months.

 

[leftiesrule]

@leftiesrule I'm relatively new to this sport but in my short tenure, I've come to a few realizations about making wine with the help from others on this forum. The people on here are the best and so helpful!

In my opinion, don't overcomplicate the process. Once your rack to secondary, just top up the wine with whatever you have on hand that's similar. I've used commercial and homemade and haven't notice a difference. Volumes are so low that it's unlikely you could tell even if you used white for a red or even water (which I wouldn't suggest but I know others have done). Eliminate excessive headspace, add kmeta on a schedule and O2 will not be an issue.

Rack at least once more during bulk aging once the fine lees have sufficiently compacted and k&c have done their job. I don't think you need to rack more than this as any remaining sediment will be fine lees and it seems that the consensus is they do not negatively affect the final outcome.

Filter your wine prior to bottling. I use an AIO with 5 micron poly filter. Works awesome! Seriously it's a great tool when paired with the filter. Wine comes out crystal clear.

I have a bottle of inert gas for blanketing, a headspace cap for pulling a vacuum but I absolutely know that eliminating the headspace is a bulletproof solution to O2 fears.

Also, I respect O2 but don't fear it as much as I once did. I can thank @winemaker81 for this.

good luck. Btw, i hate your handle

Appreciate yours and everybody else's thoughts on the matter. My intention with the original post was to get some advice from those that actually rack down and what their method is for Kmeta additions. I've done a couple kits now where I top up with commercial wine but decided that I'd give racking down a try on my most recent kit. Hopefully after this kit I'll have my process nailed down, at least with respect to headspace management!

Yikes on the handle It was a silly email address I made up in the 90's related to my lefthandedness and it just kinda stuck with me... or I'm just too lazy to come up with something new.

 

[sour_grapes]

Appreciate yours and everybody else's thoughts on the matter. My intention with the original post was to get some advice from those that actually rack down and what their method is for Kmeta additions. I've done a couple kits now where I top up with commercial wine but decided that I'd give racking down a try on my most recent kit. Hopefully after this kit I'll have my process nailed down, at least with respect to headspace management!

Yikes on the handle It was a silly email address I made up in the 90's related to my lefthandedness and it just kinda stuck with me... or I'm just too lazy to come up with something new.

Yeah, we got a little off track....

I see no problem with your plan to rack to a container large enough to hold everything, add your chemicals, and then rack to the requisite number of smaller containers. I have done similar things.

 

[Brant]

Yikes on the handle It was a silly email address I made up in the 90's related to my lefthandedness and it just kinda stuck with me... or I'm just too lazy to come up with something new.

It's funny (sad) that everything seems to be viewed context of politics now-a-days. My bad!

My brother is a lefty (hand) and he would agree with you.

I know @winemaker81 uses various sized containers with success. As such, he might have some good tips and tricks for you.

I have some swivel cap growlers that I've considered using in the past but would need to make sure fermentation was done so I didn't make a bomb. I also have some 1 gal jugs with airlocks that are handy. I need to get some airlocks to fit 750 and 375 bottles. I'm going to start using a 15 gal barrel soon so I will be topping up monthly. Having a plan on how to do this will likely involve various container sizes.

Btw, I like your handle more now!

 

[winemaker81]

I know @winemaker81 uses various sized containers with success. As such, he might have some good tips and tricks for you.

I have many containers from 125 ml and up. That said, use as few as possible. For kits, I reconstitute to 23 liters, and don't top up until after clearing. At that time, I top up to within 2" of the stopper, typically 1 to 2 bottles of a compatible wine. From there it bulk ages as long as necessary.

 

[winemaker81]

This is from last spring -- it's a small selection. I have ~25 airlocks, and I've had all of them in use, for at least a short time. But fewer containers is easier to manage AND to keep straight. I've had 8 reds going at once -- if not labeled well, they're impossible to keep organized.

 

[winemaker81]

Following on from my last post, I currently have these wines in production:

2022 Grenache
2022 Tempranillo
2022 Rhone Blend
2022 FWK Tavola Merlot / Grenache pomace
2022 FWK Tavola Merlot / Tempranillo pomace

The Grenache is visibly different (up close) as the color is MUCH lighter than the others, but from here it's hard to pick out. The others are visually identical. If I didn't label things well, I'd have to taste them to tell them apart. While that doesn't sound like a problem, it actually is.



Since this picture was taken, I have two fewer 4 liter jugs and more smaller bottles, as I broached the jugs for barrel topup. [I need to buy another half dozen #3 drilled stoppers, as I am at my limit.]

Label well .....