How Much Slower Does Bulk Aging Happen?

[Rojoguio]

I bulk aged 1 year 14 carboys of Country wine before bottling. Now the wine has been bottled for 1 year. I can't tell that the bulk aging mellowed most of the wines at all. The Peach seems to be still as "Green" as if I never bulk aged it at all. It is still sharp on the tongue. Only the Raz-a-Rita & Tripletail (blueberry-plum-meyer lemon) wines seem to have benefited from the bulk aging. Since I'm sitting on 250#'s of fruit for this Fall's fermentation season I'm feeling just bottle when ready and skip the extra step to simplify the whole process. Thoughts?

 

[Rice_Guy]

First thought is how much tannin? Tannin gives a flavor which transitions from bitter to astringent to none. If you have young tannin it will soften as it polymerizes. Another trait is that astringent acts as a multiplier for acid flavor so age definitely improves harsh / overly acidic notes. Polyphenol pigments as black raspberry color will also polymerize. In this case going from flavorless to astringent to flavorless.

Second thought; Peach, plum, red raspberry don’t have significant tannin. In this case your dominant reactions are going to be oxygen reacting with alcohol producing acetaldehyde and reacting with fruity flavor compounds producing larger non-aromatic compounds. Acetaldehyde starts as apple like which is rather pleasing. BUT as the concentration increases above 100ppm it starts going harsh, a dried apricot sharpness and at higher levels a burn in the back of the throat swallowing so you lose with extended aging.

On my part I like tannin in all non-tannic fruit. ex chestnut or crabapple or Blanc-Soft. It improves oxidation resistance which helps preserve fruity notes and delays acetaldehyde development. , , , When a non tannic wine is clear it is ready for sweetening trials and bottling. I would also say if you are using an astringent flavor tannin do sweetening and bottle. , , , , Bitter tannins can improve with age so in that situation carboy aging is useful. , , , Oxygen enters through corks at about 5mg per year which is higher than large tanks get. (micro-oxidation chemistry)

Third thought is that in year long increments alcohol combines with acids creating esthers. This results in decreased measured titratable acidity which creates smoother acidity notes. This is not oxygen dependent, it would happen if in a large carboy or a 750 bottle, so it doesn’t matter how you age your wine.

 

[winemaker81]

Although some folks believe all wines needs a specific bulk aging time, I disagree. All wines are different so using a single plan doesn't make sense.

I bulk age all wines ~3 months, bottling no sooner than the 4 month mark. This gives the wine time to go through the initial part of aging as a single unit (which reduces incidents of bottle variation) and helps ensure the wine is clear.

Beyond that? Aging depends on the wine. The following is guidelines, not hard-n-fast rules.

• Light whites and light fruits? Bottle at 4 to 6 months.
• Light reds, heavy whites, and heavy fruits? Bottle at 5 to 7 months.
• Heavy reds? Bottle at 12+ months.

Note -- My older posts may state slightly different ranges, as my opinion may vary depending on my typing before or after that first cup of coffee of the day.

Why the different ranges?

Body, ABV, acid, tannin, and sugar affect a wine's lifespan. Wines higher in a combination of these need more aging. Generally speaking, wines lower in these elements are drinkable sooner.

A Vidal I made from juice is very drinkable at 5 months. The same grapes, fermented on the skins, needs several more months of aging.

 

[Rojoguio]

Y'all are my Heroes. Thank you for the detailed responses. Not much tannin in the wines at all because I do not like the taste. All heavy on fruit, my place is covered in fruit trees, fig trees, & now 400' for muscadines. My first wines were way better just racking till clear and bottling. No back sweetening was needed at all. Alcohol was way up so this last 235 bottles of varying fruit wines I cut back the sugar alcohol still up and I had to use wine conditioner in most of it to sweeten. Take the peach, you can't taste the fruit till is was sweetened quite a bit. I will take the advice to heart on this years wines. The drought last year made everything produce heavily this year.

If I can ask, a direction to the mildest tannin would be helpful.

Brian I pinned your site for later reading. Front page looks cool.

 

[winemaker81]

Brian I pinned your site for later reading. Front page looks cool.

Thanks! You may find the Whitepapers page the most useful, link in the left sidebar.

I add 1/4 tsp powdered tannin per gallon to all fruit wines. It does not produce an oak flavor; rather it provides a bit more body and backbone to the wine.

 

[Rojoguio]

I'm in them now, a Wine Maker's Bible you've written. The Fixing Fruit Wine page is just what I was telling my wife this morning. Till 2 years ago I just made a recipe. Then retiring I got too smart for my own britches and screwed that very successful way of making drinking wine mostly for myself, up. I have drank Bourbon or Tequila, mostly 101, my entire adult life and developed a allergy to something in it so now it makes my joints swell. Strong homemade wine does not do it and I can drink more of it at one sitting. Your Fixing Fruit Wine page reinforces putting enough sugar in to start with. Fantastic Effort on Your Part, very respectable Sir!

 

[winemaker81]

I'm in them now, a Wine Maker's Bible you've written. The Fixing Fruit Wine page is just what I was telling my wife this morning. Till 2 years ago I just made a recipe. Then retiring I got too smart for my own britches and screwed that very successful way of making drinking wine mostly for myself, up. I have drank Bourbon or Tequila, mostly 101, my entire adult life and developed a allergy to something in it so now it makes my joints swell. Strong homemade wine does not do it and I can drink more of it at one sitting. Your Fixing Fruit Wine page reinforces putting enough sugar in to start with. Fantastic Effort on Your Part, very respectable Sir!

I've loved bourbon for years, but about 7 years ago I developed a problem with it -- one shot would give me a headache, 5 minutes after taking the first sip. Bourbon is aged in new oak, so I assume it was something about the histamines from the oak. I switched to rye, Irish, and Scotch, and had no problems. In the last year I discovered I can drink bourbon with no problems, so I have NO idea what the source really is.

Mother Nature is messing with us.

 

[Rojoguio]

I've loved bourbon for years, but about 7 years ago I developed a problem with it -- one shot would give me a headache, 5 minutes after taking the first sip. Bourbon is aged in new oak, so I assume it was something about the histamines from the oak. I switched to rye, Irish, and Scotch, and had no problems. In the last year I discovered I can drink bourbon with no problems, so I have NO idea what the source really is.

Mother Nature is messing with us.

I have drank my homemade hooch all summer this year, no tequila. In the fall I will switch off the Rita & Citrus blend wines to the Tripletail & Blueberry. I'm hoping the smokin' hot step fed spiced mead I made will be drinkable this winter but I think it will need more time to mellow.

 

[BPL]

Although some folks believe all wines needs a specific bulk aging time, I disagree. All wines are different so using a single plan doesn't make sense.

I bulk age all wines ~3 months, bottling no sooner than the 4 month mark. This gives the wine time to go through the initial part of aging as a single unit (which reduces incidents of bottle variation) and helps ensure the wine is clear.

Beyond that? Aging depends on the wine. The following is guidelines, not hard-n-fast rules.

• Light whites and light fruits? Bottle at 4 to 6 months.
• Light reds, heavy whites, and heavy fruits? Bottle at 5 to 7 months.
• Heavy reds? Bottle at 12+ months.

Note -- My older posts may state slightly different ranges, as my opinion may vary depending on my typing before or after that first cup of coffee of the day.

Why the different ranges?

Body, ABV, acid, tannin, and sugar affect a wine's lifespan. Wines higher in a combination of these need more aging. Generally speaking, wines lower in these elements are drinkable sooner.

A Vidal I made from juice is very drinkable at 5 months. The same grapes, fermented on the skins, needs several more months of aging.

I agree 100%. My methods are much the same. To add, "bulk" aging can be used for multiple things other than AGING wine. IMHO, the term "bulk aging" (what ever time is involved) is for the purpose of having the wine consistent from bottle to bottle. (I'm pretty sure it was coined from bulk aging in barrels where oak and micro oxygenation are in play. Home/hobby wine makers just copied it. (Again, my opinion. ) The secondary, purpose is to consider oxygen exposure through the container's opening. The ratio of the opening to volume of wine should be considered. Yes, it makes a difference. Bottles are different than 6 gallon carboy's. The tertiary purpose(s) is/are for clearing, cold stabilizing, potential acid adjustments/including dropping out of tartrates, MLF if desired, completion of fermentation, etc. So, the science of aging is more than just waiting to bottle. It's up to the winemaker to direct the final product's nuances.

Thank you for the disagreement to other's beliefs. At least two of us are in agreement.

Barry

 

[winemanden]

Forget about weeks, months, or years for bulk ageing. As WM 81 says, all wines are different. The best way to find how your wine is ageing, is to taste it. If you bottle it a bit too early, it should still develop in the bottle.

 

[mainshipfred]

Unless you have a need to tweak your wine I don't see an issue with bottle aging. The vast majority of my bottled wines are a blend of some kind. My palate is not experienced enough to know how a young wine will develop over time. I let them bulk age for at least 2 years before blending and bottling to get a better idea of what I'm dealing with. I do have to admit I'm not a purist and I'm not afraid of make adjustments during the aging process. Mostly I use powdered tannins.

 

[Rojoguio]

Unless you have a need to tweak your wine I don't see an issue with bottle aging. The vast majority of my bottled wines are a blend of some kind. My palate is not experienced enough to know how a young wine will develop over time. I let them bulk age for at least 2 years before blending and bottling to get a better idea of what I'm dealing with. I do have to admit I'm not a purist and I'm not afraid of make adjustments during the aging process. Mostly I use powdered tannins.

You sound much more like my approach. I can taste the difference in the same wine that has aged a few months apart between bottle openings. Seems there is a "Break Over" point either the wine needs "more time" or the "get me a glass I drinking some now moment" that is pretty easy to detect for me. Past that I can't tell.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Take the peach, you can't taste the fruit till is was sweetened quite a bit.
If I can ask, a direction to the mildest tannin would be helpful.

The mildest tannin I am aware of is BlancSoft. At package direction level I can’t pick it out. My go to for the local store is chestnut. It balances out against the sweet sugar notes and is an astringent like crabapple. The LD Carlson at package directions hides well (1/4 t whites; 1/3 t red grape; 1/2 t fruit wine). I like to build in long flavor notes so I frequently do a no tannin like mulberry and double it. , , , (flavors come in waves. sweet > acid ~20 seconds > tannin ~as acid washes out up to a minute. We can see more if we give impressions vs time)

Sugar is magic. I was amazed that in sweetening trials with a peach rhubarb blend, a low sugar was a nice rhubarb but as I moved the sugar up it turned into aromatic peach. , , , “what is the customer expectation?” , , , an acid fruit? an aromatic fruit? a salty snack? a sharp oriental flavor? a chocolate with vanilla notes? etc , , , I may rename a wine to bias what expectations are.

 

[winemaker81]

Unless you have a need to tweak your wine I don't see an issue with bottle aging. The vast majority of my bottled wines are a blend of some kind. My palate is not experienced enough to know how a young wine will develop over time. I let them bulk age for at least 2 years before blending and bottling to get a better idea of what I'm dealing with. I do have to admit I'm not a purist and I'm not afraid of make adjustments during the aging process. Mostly I use powdered tannins.

Fred, you illustrate another important point -- process. And that processes can be different yet all valid.

I recently commented to a friend that I bulk age wine as long as I've achieving something. Once I've achieved the goal (which is focused around getting through the major chemical changes as a single unit), I bottle. So my heavy reads are bottled at 12+ months.

OTOH, you're bulk aging longer to achieve your goals, which due to process are a bit different from mine.

I try to avoid saying "this is how it should be done" when the real statement is "this is how I do it".

On a tangent, last night I opened my 2022 "Tempranillo 5%" (95% Tempranillo and 5% Rhone blend). This was bottled nearly a year ago and when I last opened a bottle (late spring?) I was disappointed in the wine. Not that it was bad; rather, it wasn't as good as I was hoping.

Last night's bottle illustrated a comment I make frequently: Patience, Grasshopper.

Yeah, the wine was totally different. MUCH improved and likely to get better.

 

[wineview]

I'm in them now, a Wine Maker's Bible you've written. The Fixing Fruit Wine page is just what I was telling my wife this morning. Till 2 years ago I just made a recipe. Then retiring I got too smart for my own britches and screwed that very successful way of making drinking wine mostly for myself, up. I have drank Bourbon or Tequila, mostly 101, my entire adult life and developed an allergy to something in it so now it makes my joints swell. Strong homemade wine does not do it and I can drink more of it at one sitting. Your Fixing Fruit Wine page reinforces putting enough sugar in to start with. Fantastic Effort on Your Part, very respectable Sir!

Is there a link for this Bible you speak about.

 

[Rojoguio]

Yes, here it is.

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/whitepapers/

 

[mainshipfred]

Thanks! You may find the Whitepapers page the most useful, link in the left sidebar.

I add 1/4 tsp powdered tannin per gallon to all fruit wines. It does not produce an oak flavor; rather it provides a bit more body and backbone to the wine.

I just opened the link to your White Pages. I didn't read all of it but what I did read I thought was well written, very nice job.

 

[winemaker81]

I just opened the link to your White Pages. I didn't read all of it but what I did read I thought was well written, very nice job.

Thanks!

A lot of of the posts were inspired by questions on the forum. I figured it was easier to write a fully thought out reply once, and point people to it.

 

[Terryfirma]

Y'all are my Heroes. Thank you for the detailed responses. Not much tannin in the wines at all because I do not like the taste. All heavy on fruit, my place is covered in fruit trees, fig trees, & now 400' for muscadines. My first wines were way better just racking till clear and bottling. No back sweetening was needed at all. Alcohol was way up so this last 235 bottles of varying fruit wines I cut back the sugar alcohol still up and I had to use wine conditioner in most of it to sweeten. Take the peach, you can't taste the fruit till is was sweetened quite a bit. I will take the advice to heart on this years wines. The drought last year made everything produce heavily this year.

If I can ask, a direction to the mildest tannin would be helpful.

Brian I pinned your site for later reading. Front page looks cool.

I have made quite a few country wines.. but the small batch of Peach wine that I tried a few years ago is the only wine I cannot drink.
I keep hoping it will improve with age.. but it does not:/ If I ever have an abundance of Peaches, I might try a cordial- or just make cobblers!

 

[Rojoguio]

I put up 80 pounds of peaches this year. Some was sliced with sugar for smoothies for my wife but some were vacuum packed in larger quantities for wine but I totally agree with you about the cobblers. I make quick bread with them too. So the peach wine better get tuned up soon here also. Last peach batch was made with store bought peaches. I hear store bought peaches don't make a good wine. If I add wine conditioner to the peach wine it improves the flavor but it takes a lot where my other country wines get sweeter in the rack as they age or seem to.