How much Wine Conditioner?

[Khristyjeff]

I need to sweeten 5 gallons of Rhubarb wine, and I've calculated the exact amount of sugar I'd need to add (after stabilizing) to get to our desired Specific Gravity for sweetness. However, I have a bag and 2/3 of wine conditioner I'd like to use up. Any formulas for converting amount of sugar versus ounces of wine conditioner? I've tried searching this forum and on the web generally and they all say add to taste. Thanks for any advice you can give

 

[ChuckD]

I would add to taste (ducks)

If you dilute a known amount of the conditioner with distilled water until you can get a SG reading you should be able to calculate the amount of sugar by volume in the conditioner.

 

[winemaker81]

I've tried searching this forum and on the web generally and they all say add to taste.

This is good advice. Your hydrometer doesn't care how sweet your wine is, so its opinion is of little value.

There's no such thing as the "right SG" for backsweetening a wine. A given wine's ABV, TA, pH, and body will all affect how much sugar is required, and the final factor -- your taste buds -- are a complete wildcard. Another factor is that your wine is rhubarb, which has a flavor all of its own.

If you still want a target SG, read the SG of your wine then add an amount of conditioner, stir well, and take another SG reading. Use those reading the determine the amount of conditioner. Here's an example:

Let's say your wine is at 0.995 and your target SG is 1.010. And let's say adding 1/2 cup conditioner raises the SG to 1.000.​

​

[ I'm making these numbers up to provide an example -- I have NO clue how much the SG will change when adding 1/2 cup conditioner to 5 US gallons of wine. ]​

​

In this example, the SG went up 5 "points" (shorthand to simplify the explanation).​

​

Your target requires it to go up 10 more "points", so another 1 cup of conditioner would be required.​

Does this help?

 

[TCPT18]

More Wines list the condition as being 76-78 brix. Using those numbers and your wine numbers you should be able to calculate the volume of conditioner to add. I had the value of the conditioner in SG somewhere but could not find it for you. I am sure you can make the conversion in Fermcalc brix to SG or vis vers.

 

[Khristyjeff]

Thank you all for your replies. Lots to chew on here (and sip on perhaps).

 

[Rocky]

I need to sweeten 5 gallons of Rhubarb wine, and I've calculated the exact amount of sugar I'd need to add (after stabilizing) to get to our desired Specific Gravity for sweetness. However, I have a bag and 2/3 of wine conditioner I'd like to use up. Any formulas for converting amount of sugar versus ounces of wine conditioner? I've tried searching this forum and on the web generally and they all say add to taste. Thanks for any advice you can give

I will be facing the same issue in a few days. I have a 5 gallon carboy of Trebbiano-Riesling which is sitting at SG 0.990, i.e. very dry. I don't like sweet wine and I think I would like the finished wine to be in the SG 1.000-1.005 range. I have a bag of "conditioner" that came with the kit and my plan is to "sneak up" on this range by starting with about 1/2 the contents, stirring well and taking a reading (rinse and repeat).

 

[Rice_Guy]

A sweetner test with wine conditioner:
S. Grav. . . . . . . oz wine conditioner per 750 ml
1.003 . . . . . . 0.5 oz
1.008 . . . . . . 1.1 oz
1.018 . . . . . . 2.0 oz
1.022 . . . . . . 2.2 oz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the addition of sugar to a beverage is linear, at least in the region useful for wine,
this graph using gm table sugar per 100 ml might be useful;

(sorry I tried to add an axes for sugar per 750 ml to a data set based on gm sugar per 100 ml wine)

 

[Raptor99]

I backsweeten by taste alone, and don't measure SG at that point. The amount of backsweetening needed depends on the variety of fruit, fruit flavor due to growing conditions, ripeness of fruit at harvest, acidity, ABV, alcohol level, and level of tannins. All of these factors will affect the perceived sweetness. So there is not one SG number that will work for all wines.

I keep notes, so when I repeat a recipe, I have an idea of about how much sugar is needed the next time I make it, provided the recipe and conditions are the same.

 

[Khristyjeff]

I will be facing the same issue in a few days. I have a 5 gallon carboy of Trebbiano-Riesling which is sitting at SG 0.990, i.e. very dry. I don't like sweet wine and I think I would like the finished wine to be in the SG 1.000-1.005 range. I have a bag of "conditioner" that came with the kit and my plan is to "sneak up" on this range by starting with about 1/2 the contents, stirring well and taking a reading (rinse and repeat).

Hi @Rocky . I thought I'd report my numbers for backsweetening my rhubarb wine even though your grape wine will probably be different. I basically followed your plan: Added 1/3 then 1/3 then the final 1/3 of the bag of conditioner. That raised my rhubarb from 0.994 to 1.008. Then I switched to sugar, and added a total of 350 grams to raise the SG to 1.016. Tasted great to my wife and I. Good luck with your Trebbiano/Riesling.

 

[BPL]

Thank you all for your replies. Lots to chew on here (and sip on perhaps).

At the end of all the conversations, suggestions, and recommendations, humans can't taste numbers. It comes down to what the stuff in your glass tastes like.

 

[BPL]

I need to sweeten 5 gallons of Rhubarb wine, and I've calculated the exact amount of sugar I'd need to add (after stabilizing) to get to our desired Specific Gravity for sweetness. However, I have a bag and 2/3 of wine conditioner I'd like to use up. Any formulas for converting amount of sugar versus ounces of wine conditioner? I've tried searching this forum and on the web generally and they all say add to taste. Thanks for any advice you can give

I strongly suggest considering the contents of the "wine conditioner". Trusting the contents and the manufacturer's statements (and label name) can lead to unexpected results.

I write this for several reasons. First is these types of products contain sorbate. If following most directions/recipes, sorbate is recommended when back sweetening. Following recipes and using the "wine conditioner", sorbate is way over dosed.

The second reason is it's assumed that wine conditioners contain zero sucrose. If sucrose (white table sugar) is added for back sweetening, the enzymes break the sucrose bonds into glucose and fructose. Fructose is sweeter tasting to humans, so the result tasting sweeter than originally intended. For example, does decaffeinated coffee contain zero, as in no caffeine?

Along with the above, is verify artificial sugars are not used if sensitive to the associated tastes. I happen to be sensitive and can detect the flavors at very low levels.

I used the Global wine conditioner shown in your post back sweetening a Riesling batch. If my opinions matter, I'll NEVER use that product again. The resulting wine turned sweeter over time (~1 year), friends that have used it confirmed increased sweetness on their wines, and I almost screwed up the Riesling.

So, be aware.

Barry

 

[Rocky]

I strongly suggest considering the contents of the "wine conditioner". Trusting the contents and the manufacturer's statements (and label name) can lead to unexpected results.

I write this for several reasons. First is these types of products contain sorbate. If following most directions/recipes, sorbate is recommended when back sweetening. Following recipes and using the "wine conditioner", sorbate is way over dosed.

The second reason is it's assumed that wine conditioners contain zero sucrose. If sucrose (white table sugar) is added for back sweetening, the enzymes break the sucrose bonds into glucose and fructose. Fructose is sweeter tasting to humans, so the result tasting sweeter than originally intended. For example, does decaffeinated coffee contain zero, as in no caffeine?

Along with the above, is verify artificial sugars are not used if sensitive to the associated tastes. I happen to be sensitive and can detect the flavors at very low levels.

I used the Global wine conditioner shown in your post back sweetening a Riesling batch. If my opinions matter, I'll NEVER use that product again. The resulting wine turned sweeter over time (~1 year), friends that have used it confirmed increased sweetness on their wines, and I almost screwed up the Riesling.

So, be aware.

Barry

Barry, do your above comments apply to the "conditioner" that is included in a kit? My Trebbiano-Riesling had such a bag and I am about to use it. Thanks.

 

[winemaker81]

I write this for several reasons. First is these types of products contain sorbate. If following most directions/recipes, sorbate is recommended when back sweetening. Following recipes and using the "wine conditioner", sorbate is way over dosed.

The amount of sorbate in a conditioner pack is enough to keep the pack itself from fermenting, but not enough to keep the wine from re-fermenting. IIRC, @mainshipfred tried no-sorbate a few years back and had a referment. Shortly after that I emailed Winexpert and Gail @ Winexpert (who has provided reliable information in the past) confirmed the amount of sorbate in the pack is just for the pack itself.

I have used conditioner packs when included in kits (e.g., FWK Frutta Strawberry and Blackberry), and it worked fine. But when backsweetening I use plain 'ole table sugar. I don't backsweeten much, except lightly for fruit wines and to adjust acid in whites.

The changes in sugar I was aware of -- that's good to point out. For many folks, the change in sweetness isn't a big deal, but my preference is less sweet than most people, so it does affect me.

 

[BPL]

do your above comments apply to the "conditioner" that is included in a kit?

I have only used Global wine conditioner once, so I guess my comments are generalizations.

I am not suggesting it never be used. My comments are to share "my" results and information for others.

I don't like sweet wines and hardly use any back sweetening at all. When I do, it's always white table sugar, if any and then just enough to taste the change. For me, the "just enough to taste the change" adjusts the sweetness PERFECTLY in about a year (for me and my wife).

Another example is I made several batches of wine using Concord grapes all kinds of different ways. I want to like it but never could get past the taste, so I dumped all the batches. Some people rave about Concord grape wines and I can't understand why. I hate the stuff. So what ever makes you happy, go for it.

 

[winemaker81]

Barry, do your above comments apply to the "conditioner" that is included in a kit? My Trebbiano-Riesling had such a bag and I am about to use it. Thanks.

I suspect Barry's tastes are similar to my own -- when I backsweeten a wine, it's often off-dry more than anything else.

The FWK Frutta Strawberry and Blackberry I made in the spring 2022 (yeah, they're coming up on 3 yo) each came with 2 conditioner packs. Prior to bulk aging I added the finishing pack (sorbate + K-meta) and 1 conditioner pack to each. When I taste tested them a few months later, both were unpleasantly acidic, and after reading the exploits of others when making Frutta, I did something unusual for me – I blindly added the second pack to each wine.

I like the final result, and nearly 3 years later am pleased with both wines. However, I have suggested to others who prefer a sweeter wine, that adding more sugar may be necessary. The Frutta I made are very acidic, and needed the sugar to balance the acid, and the result is not overly sweet by my standards.

If I understand correctly, Barry's problem is a result of adding table sugar to the wine after adding a conditioner pack. If you add just the conditioner, I suspect you won't have the same problem.

You might try what I did -- add half the pack to the wine, put it back in the carboy, and taste it in 30 days. Freeze or refrigerate the remainder in the pack until you use it.

Offering advice on some things, like backsweetening, is harder-n-heck 'cuz we're doing it sight-unseen and we all have differing tastes.

 

[BPL]

If I understand correctly, Barry's problem is a result of adding table sugar to the wine after adding a conditioner pack

Sorry. My fault. I did not explain correctly. I did not mean to imply I added sugar PLUS the conditioner pack. When I added the conditioner pack the wine turned sweeter in time....at least that is what my taste buds told me.

Was there sucrose in the conditioner pack? I have no clue. Did the wine itself turn sweeter? Maybe.

Exactly correct though. Offering advice on many things is hard.

 

[Khristyjeff]

I strongly suggest considering the contents of the "wine conditioner". Trusting the contents and the manufacturer's statements (and label name) can lead to unexpected results.

I write this for several reasons. First is these types of products contain sorbate. If following most directions/recipes, sorbate is recommended when back sweetening. Following recipes and using the "wine conditioner", sorbate is way over dosed.

The second reason is it's assumed that wine conditioners contain zero sucrose. If sucrose (white table sugar) is added for back sweetening, the enzymes break the sucrose bonds into glucose and fructose. Fructose is sweeter tasting to humans, so the result tasting sweeter than originally intended. For example, does decaffeinated coffee contain zero, as in no caffeine?

Along with the above, is verify artificial sugars are not used if sensitive to the associated tastes. I happen to be sensitive and can detect the flavors at very low levels.

I used the Global wine conditioner shown in your post back sweetening a Riesling batch. If my opinions matter, I'll NEVER use that product again. The resulting wine turned sweeter over time (~1 year), friends that have used it confirmed increased sweetness on their wines, and I almost screwed up the Riesling.

So, be aware.

Barry

Thanks Barry for sharing your experiences. Since Rhubarb wine is the only one that I back sweeten, I plan to just stick with sugar and sorbate/K-Meta for the future. I like being able to refer to my old notes and repeat results using similar SG numbers, table sugar, and the FermCalc App.

 

[Rocky]

I suspect Barry's tastes are similar to my own -- when I backsweeten a wine, it's often off-dry more than anything else.

The FWK Frutta Strawberry and Blackberry I made in the spring 2022 (yeah, they're coming up on 3 yo) each came with 2 conditioner packs. Prior to bulk aging I added the finishing pack (sorbate + K-meta) and 1 conditioner pack to each. When I taste tested them a few months later, both were unpleasantly acidic, and after reading the exploits of others when making Frutta, I did something unusual for me – I blindly added the second pack to each wine.

I like the final result, and nearly 3 years later am pleased with both wines. However, I have suggested to others who prefer a sweeter wine, that adding more sugar may be necessary. The Frutta I made are very acidic, and needed the sugar to balance the acid, and the result is not overly sweet by my standards.

If I understand correctly, Barry's problem is a result of adding table sugar to the wine after adding a conditioner pack. If you add just the conditioner, I suspect you won't have the same problem.

You might try what I did -- add half the pack to the wine, put it back in the carboy, and taste it in 30 days. Freeze or refrigerate the remainder in the pack until you use it.

Offering advice on some things, like backsweetening, is harder-n-heck 'cuz we're doing it sight-unseen and we all have differing tastes.

Bryan, I normally would not even consider back sweetening or even adding a flavor pack. It is just that the SG of this Trebbiano-Riesling is so low that I need to get it up a little this time. I made one other kit a few years back (don't recall if it was a T-B or not) that had a flavor pack and I just added it in primary to increase the SGi. I think I fermented it to about 0.999 and left it there. I have 3 carboys of finished T-B and I may just taste it, take an SG reading and match it.

 

[winemaker81]

Bryan, I normally would not even consider back sweetening or even adding a flavor pack. It is just that the SG of this Trebbiano-Riesling is so low that I need to get it up a little this time. I made one other kit a few years back (don't recall if it was a T-B or not) that had a flavor pack and I just added it in primary to increase the SGi. I think I fermented it to about 0.999 and left it there. I have 3 carboys of finished T-B and I may just taste it, take an SG reading and match it.

Is the SG low, or do you mean the ABV is low? If it's ABV, add sugar, not the conditioner pack.

I don't make a lot of kits with flavor packs. However, I formed the opinion that if a flavor pack is included, it's part of the overall target, so I use it. If I don't want to use the flavor pack, I probably should have purchased a different kit.

Why? Because "why?" is the question I ask: Why did the vendor include that specific flavor pack, even if it's just sugar?

Many moons ago I drank higher end German Rieslings. All were off-dry to semi-sweet, because the grapes were acidic and the sugar was necessary to balance the acid. I was far more clueless than I am today, and focused too much on the sugar. Not on how it balanced the wine.

A couple years ago I purchased a few bottles of Finger Lakes Vignoles, and when I got the wine, the label said it was sweet. And technically, it is. But the wine is so acidic that the "sweet" is felt for a brief moment at the same time as the high acid, then the two balance each other so a technically sweet wine tastes off-dry.

Before you make any decisions, taste your wine. Consider how acidic it is, and if you'll need sugar to balance it.

 

[Rocky]

Bryan, the SGf is 0.990. With an SGi of 1.092, I make the ABV about 13.4%. I would like the ABV to be closer to 12%. If I can add either the flavor pack and/or sugar and get the SGf up to a tad over 1.000 I think I will be at 12% and at the level of sweetness I want.

I understand your view of using the flavor pack if included in a kit. In the case of T-R, sweetness levels vary from off dry to sweet. This will only be my second time using a flavor pack. The first, as described above, I added in primary. Also, I have three carboys of T-R from another kit supplier and those kits did not have any flavor pack.

BTW, I have no idea as to why I had been typing T-B when I meant T-R (Trebbiano-Riesling). Sorry for any confusion this has caused.