How to correct low pH and TA

[SLM]

Picking up CS next week. Vineyard data shows Brix 25.1, Acid 0.46, pH 3.26.

If my readings are similar, is it possible to raise both? If not, what would be your focus?

 

[Rice_Guy]

The purpose for pH is to create a safe environment that keeps out contamination. The ideal is 3.2 to 3.3 so why would you change it?

The purpose of TA is to provide depth of sensation when the wine is finished and y’all are serving it. This is a balancing act between tannin/ sugar/ acid therefore possibly change adjust at bottling time.
I would love to have those numbers all the time, they translate into an extremely good tasting ($100) wine which should balance when served dry, , , , and as a frequent country wine maker if it tastes balanced dry I could skip the K sorbate addition.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

What @Rice_Guy said... it looks to me like you are in a good place. Plus, acidity is likely to rise a bit as you go through fermentation. I would be wary of changing anything before then, even though post-fermentation acid adjustments are more perilous.

I recently found this article on the Vinmetrica website which does a nice job of describing pH, TA and when to adjust them.

 

[SLM]

Thanks all. I was under the impression that I wanted pH 3.4-3.6. I've been reading a lot, maybe not enough!

 

[stickman]

I haven't seen pH and TA like this for Cab, not impossible but it is rare, so you really have to be careful of what numbers to trust. pH often increases due to an increase of potassium after a few days on the skins, but again this is all variable depending on the grapes and where grown etc. Obviously you'll know more once you test for yourself.

 

[AaronSC]

I would test this again. It's definitely not impossible but weird for Cab. I have seen hybrids and some Italian white grapes (Fiano is one) show low acid and low pH, but not Cab (in my experience in CA and NY grapes)

 

[David Violante]

I recently found this article on the Vinmetrica website which does a nice job of describing pH, TA and when to adjust them.

Great article thank you!

 

[Johnd]

Thanks all. I was under the impression that I wanted pH 3.4-3.6. I've been reading a lot, maybe not enough!

You’re reading is just fine, if your CS is in that range, roll with it. As others have said, it’ll be interesting to see the real numbers when you get it home, TA is probably about what would be expected, but pH is expected higher, at least for warmer areas of California. If your grapes hail from a cooler location, those numbers might be spot on. Where are you sourcing your fruit? Keep us posted when it gets in and you’ve run your tests.

 

[SLM]

Grapes are from Washington. And now I see from the chart that the numbers can fluctuate.

Gamache Vineyards - Block G.3 (Cab Sauv )

Sample Date​	Brix​	Acid​	pH​	Sample Type​
9 Oct (yesterday)​	25.20​	0.44​	3.43​	Cluster Sample​
6 Oct (4 days ago)​	25.10​	0.46​	3.26​	Cluster Sample​
2 Oct (8 days ago)​	24.70​	0.72​	3.35​	Cluster Sample​
29 Sep (11 days ago)​	24.70​	0.69​	3.36​	Cluster Sample​
25 Sep (2 weeks ago)​	23.70​	0.59​	3.46​	Cluster Sample​
22 Sep (3 weeks ago)​	24.00​	0.77​	3.18​	Cluster Sample​
18 Sep (3 weeks ago)​	23.30​	0.72​	3.15​	Cluster Sample​

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Grapes are from Washington. And now I see from the chart that the numbers can fluctuate.

Gamache Vineyards - Block G.3 (Cab Sauv )

Sample Date​	Brix​	Acid​	pH​	Sample Type​
9 Oct (yesterday)​	25.20​	0.44​	3.43​	Cluster Sample​
6 Oct (4 days ago)​	25.10​	0.46​	3.26​	Cluster Sample​
2 Oct (8 days ago)​	24.70​	0.72​	3.35​	Cluster Sample​
29 Sep (11 days ago)​	24.70​	0.69​	3.36​	Cluster Sample​
25 Sep (2 weeks ago)​	23.70​	0.59​	3.46​	Cluster Sample​
22 Sep (3 weeks ago)​	24.00​	0.77​	3.18​	Cluster Sample​
18 Sep (3 weeks ago)​	23.30​	0.72​	3.15​	Cluster Sample​

If the grapes are watered that causes fluctuation

 

[SLM]

My test results:
Brix 27.5
pH 3.8
TA .54
Will dilute with acidulated water. Then what? Test again? Or should I expect to add acid?

 

[CDrew]

Those are not bad numbers. A water/acid correction could get you to 25 brix and pH 3.65 easily. That's where I'd want to be.

And, I think you'll be adding some tartaric acid. Maybe like 1.5gm/liter of finished wine.

 

[Mario Dinis]

I have a problem with my Ph and need some serious help. I have six 6 gallon carboys with Petite Sirah, Syrah, Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Chardonnay and Merlot all bought at Gino Pinto. Juice buckets. AF fermentation is done and on October 1st I started MLF. By Thanksgiving it was stuck. Today I checked the ph and the results aren't good: 3.00, 3.17, 2.94, 3.06, 3.02 and 2.94. Same order as above for the grape. How do I correct this? There's a "hint" of flatness in the taste. What can I use and quantity to correct this? First time I have this problem. Specially with Gino's product.

 

[sour_grapes]

Those values all seem improbably low, and in conflict with the flat taste. I am questioning your pH meter's calibration.

What does a commercial wine measure with your instrument?

 

[Rice_Guy]

first answer is that the numbers don’t matter, taste is why we have the rules about target pH, do you have a TA reading? Taste and TA are correlated not taste and pH ,,,, ex colas come in at pH 2 and citrus soda at pH 2.5.
next answer is that CO2 will push the pH down, try heating an ounce in the microwave for 45 seconds, stir to get the CO2 out, cool to room temp and rerun pH number
@sour_grapes has another good answer, check your meter on other foods

the ph and the results aren't good: 3.00, 3.17, 2.94, 3.06, 3.02 and 2.94. Same order as above for the grape. How do I correct this? There's a "hint" of flatness in the taste. What can I use and quantity to correct this? .

 

[Mario Dinis]

Those values all seem improbably low, and in conflict with the flat taste. I am questioning your pH meter's calibration.

What does a commercial wine measure with your instrument?

I calibrated mine about a month ago. Will do it again. Didn't think about trying it on a commercial wine. I will definitely do it today. Thanks.

 

[Mario Dinis]

first answer is that the numbers don’t matter, taste is why we have the rules about target pH, do you have a TA reading? Taste and TA are correlated not taste and pH ,,,, ex colas come in at pH 2 and citrus soda at pH 2.5.
next answer is that CO2 will push the pH down, try heating an ounce in the microwave for 45 seconds, stir to get the CO2 out, cool to room temp and rerun pH number
@sour_grapes has another good answer, check your meter on other foods

I don't have the means to check TA. But I will definitely try your heating recommendation. Thanks.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Those values all seem improbably low, and in conflict with the flat taste. I am questioning your pH meter's calibration.

What does a commercial wine measure with your instrument?

I tested my meter on a commercial wine. Looks pretty accurate.

 

[AaronSC]

I agree with everyone else -for grapes from CA and likely central valley, these are unbelievably low, especially since they are low across all the varietals and post-fermentation. These are even low for cold climate grapes at this stage. Did you check the pH when you first got the grapes? I find that pH often RISES substantially with red grapes as they ferment with the skins (or even just sit with the skins). The only thing I can think of is Gino must have added a lot of tartaric to the buckets, maybe miscalculating this. This would make the wine taste very sour, though, and you claim it tastes flat, as if lacking acid.

I know you tested this on a commercial wine, but that commercial wine could have easily had a pretty high pH (3.8-4, say) and you meter could be way low on everything. I personally would not try to reduce the pH using chemicals (which can really impact a wine, especially if it doesn't actually have a low pH) without more information. I believe you can test your meter in an absolute sense by dissolving a specific weight of tartaric acid in distilled water in a way that gives a known pH and verify that you measure that same pH.

 

[Mario Dinis]

I agree with everyone else -for grapes from CA and likely central valley, these are unbelievably low, especially since they are low across all the varietals and post-fermentation. These are even low for cold climate grapes at this stage. Did you check the pH when you first got the grapes? I find that pH often RISES substantially with red grapes as they ferment with the skins (or even just sit with the skins). The only thing I can think of is Gino must have added a lot of tartaric to the buckets, maybe miscalculating this. This would make the wine taste very sour, though, and you claim it tastes flat, as if lacking acid.

I know you tested this on a commercial wine, but that commercial wine could have easily had a pretty high pH (3.8-4, say) and you meter could be way low on everything. I personally would not try to reduce the pH using chemicals (which can really impact a wine, especially if it doesn't actually have a low pH) without more information. I believe you can test your meter in an absolute sense by dissolving a specific weight of tartaric acid in distilled water in a way that gives a known pH and verify that you measure that same pH.

I use juice buckets. I will recalibrate my meter again.